Managing people when you are not a people manager keeps most property management businesses within 0-200 doors. They can’t scale beyond that without hiring a significant number of people. How can you shift to outsourcing to scale, save money, and improve business operations?
Today, I am talking with Todd Breen of VirtuallyinCredible, which helps answer property management leasing calls every day through its experienced call center. Also, VirtuallyinCredible can hire virtual assistants (VAs) and customer service representatives (CSRs) with or without phone skills for you and your property management business.
[03:15] Outsourcing: Follow rules to get it right, and select best solution to avoid failure.
[04:03] Outsource companies often find and hire virtual assistants (VAs) and other team members from foreign countries causing frustration instead of support .
[06:00] Small businesses need an entrepreneur, people manager, and task-oriented employees.
[07:43] People Manager Traits: They care for their staff and have strong coaching, communication, and development skills.
[08:50] Avoid pitfall of a property management entrepreneur who manages a team, but shouldn’t; they’re nice people, but they’re not making money or sales for the business.
[12:30] Grow your management company by adding more doors and a people manager.
[13:35] Entrepreneurs are sales-oriented, driven, and willing to do things others aren’t; they start controlling everyone and everything, so they need “inspired staff.”
[16:25] Systems can make or break businesses; is your business systemized; and has it established and documented processes, policies, and systems?
[20:14] HR should find, hire, and train employees; supervision is quality assurance.
[21:38] Three Outsource Options: Hire your own VA directly; hire a VA reseller/recruiter; or select turnkey solution to hire VA for you.
[27:54] Ask for and get good reviews by offering good service.
[38:30] Don’t underestimate or overestimate software; technology is another tool. besides outsourcing that creates leverage, and lowers operational and staffing costs.
Property management businesses can’t scale, stay stale without hiring lots of people.
Shift to outsourcing to scale, save money, and improve business operations.
Outsourcing: Get it right by following rules and avoid failure by selecting a solution
Lifeblood of Real Estate Business: Answer phone, get listing, rent/sell new listing
DGS 39: Property Management Outsourcing with Todd Breen
DGS 43: How Virtually Incredible Can Help a Property Management Business Grow with Todd Breen
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The online Windows XP simulator runs in a web browser and its operation imitates the operating system. You can use it to prank someone.
Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, and expand your rent roll, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker.
At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, expand the market, and help the best property managers win. If you enjoy this episode, do me a favor, open up iTunes, find the DoorGrowShow, subscribe, and then give us a real review. Thank you for helping us with that vision. I’m your host, property management growth hacker Jason Hull, the founder of OpenPotion, GatherKudos, ThunderLocal, and of course, DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show.
Today’s guest, I have with me, the wise, experienced, property management guru, Todd Breen. Todd, welcome to the show.
Todd: Thanks, Jason. It’s awesome to be here.
Jason: Todd, you are talking to us live right now from Manila, right?
Todd: That’s correct. I spend a few months a year here working with our team and been enjoying my time here, and getting a lot of work done. It’s an honor to be on your show all the away from around the world.
Jason: It’s a tropical island though, right?
Todd: It is. It’s actually the cooler season right now, so it’s similar to where I live in Florida. It’s just a nice weather.
Jason: Maybe there’s a little bit of fun in it while you’re there too.
Todd: Yeah. I played golf today while you guys were sleeping.
Jason: Yes, nice. Cool. Todd, today, we are going to be talking about outsourcing roles for small, medium, and large companies—perhaps there’s some differences there—and connected to Virtually inCredible. Tell everybody, what is your thinking behind outsourcing in general. This is a topic that used to be taboo. It used to be a bad word. “Uh-oh, they’re outsourcing. You’re not using people in the US, you’re like some sort of evil entrepreneur.” I think the temperature shifted.
Todd: It has. I first started outsourcing eight years ago in 2010. Back in those days, I got a lot of raised eyebrows and funny looks. Now, when people hear that we’re outsourcing to the scale that we are, a lot of people are like, “Wow! That’s awesome! How can I save some money and improve my business operations in the process?” It’s really matured nicely.
The topic today is about how to get it right if you’re going to try and outsource, whether you’re a small, medium, or large business. I’m really excited to share what I’ve learned in eight years of helping small, medium, and large businesses outsource. I’ve seen what’s worked and what hasn’t. In this, I’m just going to lay it out for you and say, “Hey, if you’ve tried and failed in the past, I can probably pinpoint how that happened.” We’ll do it in a very simple grid that I’ve made for you guys. If you’re a first timer and you want to get it done right the first time, we’re going to explain the rules for you and have what it takes to do it right and to pick the right outsourcing solution.
Jason: Anyone that’s listening to this show knows we’ve had a few different companies that help with like either VAs or outsourcing or finding assistants for things, and I’ve revealed multiple times, I’ve had my fair share of failures. I’ve had team members in India, Bolivia, Philippines. Right now, the bulk of my team are in the US because I’ve had so many struggles dealing with a lot of that. But we’re now just now ourselves getting back into hiring and sourcing some talent in the Philippines to add greater support for my team and my staff.
Our team has helped your team with some branding work and designing new logos, so check out Virtually inCredible’s new shiny logo. I’m really liking it. We also helped out HireSmart VAs and have cleaned up their branding. It’s been awesome getting familiar with people that are making a difference in the space of property management. You’re also making a difference in the lives of people in the Philippines.
Todd: I grew up in the real estate business. My dad was a very busy real estate broker, very successful, and he was working days, nights, and weekends, and he was always answering the phone. Because he couldn’t afford not to answer the phone because the lifeblood of any real estate business is answer the phone, get a listing, answer the phone, rent or sell new listing. I have a real passion now with my four kids to give them a better quality of life as third generation property management company. They just look at me and say, “Dad, how did you do it before you could outsource your leasing lines or before you could have your own private virtual assistant that was full time helping you?” And I said, ‘Yeah, it was a lot of hard work and now, it’s a lot of smart work.”
Let me get into what the rules are so that the viewers will have an idea what it takes to get the right solution for you no matter what stage of business you’re in. Is it alright with you if I share my screen?
Jason: Yeah, you can share your screen. Just make sure you’re talking through it because some people would just be hearing this.
Todd: I’m sharing my screen, I’m going here, I’m hitting play, and tell me if you can see my slides.
Jason: Yup, I see them.
Todd: If you’re a small business, you’re all three of what a business needs. Because a business needs an entrepreneur that actually is the driving force behind the business, a people manager and task a score of people or employees that actually perform the tasks needed to get the job done in the business. Me, I’m an entrepreneur, always have been my whole life, and I struggled building my management company with one thing and that was managing my staff. I was pretty good at managing owners and tenants, but you don’t work everyday, all day, eight hours a day with your homeowner and your tenant. You get intermittent relationships with them. You have to actually build a relationship with your team. Whether it’s inhouse, whether it’s onshore, whether it’s offshore, if you can’t manage people, then my aha moment was, “I needed a people manager.”
On this screen, I'm listing the things that a people manager needs. They’re good at caring for their staff. Me, as an entrepreneur, that’s not in my DNA. I’m not going to trouble you with my troubles and I appreciate it if won’t trouble me with yours. Entrepreneurs are not the warm fuzzy people managers. People managers are good at coaching, communicating, development, they take an interest in the development of the staff. I’ve got a graphic on the screen, there’s things that a people manager does. Number one, they know me. Number two, they focus on me and help me to focus. Number three, they care about me as a person. When all three of those things happen, they inspire me to do my best. There’s a long list of things that people managers do, but that inspiration in getting into the minds and hearts of the team and building a team is what a people manager does.
Jason: Just to back that up, what I’ll say is, I see this a lot. That’s what I get to do all day long is—I’ve talked to hundreds of different property management entrepreneurs, especially when they get into that 2-400 door range—they end up in this pitfall where they now have a team and the trap because they’re trying to manage this team, and they have this to-do list that’s ever growing and endlessly long, and everything on their to-do list have been sitting there for more than two weeks. It’s probably there because they’re not the person that should be doing it. They’re in a situation which they are not natural managers. It’s just not who they are.
Todd: Right.
Jason: They end up in a difficult situation in which they’re not managing well, the team’s not performing well, and then they’re blaming the team.
Todd: They’re really in the wrong role. An entrepreneur is very rarely a people manager. If we meet an entrepreneur who’s an awesome people manager, you’re looking at the one in a thousand entrepreneurs, or one in a hundred. It’s rare to see somebody who’s a gifted entrepreneur, and a wonderful people manager.
Jason: Virtually, if they are really good people managers, they’re not so great at the entrepreneurship, the sales side of the business is struggling, they’re really nice to people, but they’re not making money.
Todd: On the screen, I’ve got a picture of my wife and I right now. My wife is the consummate, ultimate people manager. She’s tremendous in managing people. We have a team of well over 150 here in the Philippines. They all think of her as the mother goose or mother hen, but they love and respect her, and they all do for her above and beyond because they’re inspired by her. It’s awesome for me to see that because I don’t have that skill set and it’s wonderful, it defines our company.
Let me explain to you why that’s so important. If you are a small business, you’re the entrepreneur, and you hire your first staff member—maybe it’s a property manager, maybe it’s a secretary, or a receptionist, maybe it’s an inspector, or a work person/handyman—as soon as you start managing people and you’re not a people manager, that’s what keeps most property management businesses in the 0-200 doors. Because you can’t scale beyond 200 doors without hiring a significant number of people. Whether you hire them yourself, or you outsource them, it’s up to you, but you need people to blow past 200 doors.
The companies, they get from 150-200 doors and grow up to 500 doors, they have to develop a people manager and get reliable people that work for them. There’s ways that you can get a people manager. You can hire one directly. By the way, if you were 500 or more doors, the companies that are 800-1000, 2000 doors, let me tell you something, they have a people manager on staff.
Jason: Sometimes multiple.
Todd: That people manager is the reason why they’ve hit that level and it’s the missing ingredient. Everyone says how do I grow my management company. I say, We’ll, there’s two ways to grow your management company. One is add more doors but at some point, you’re going to need to add a people manager.” You can actually rent a people manager or you can hire one depending on how you outsource. That’s one of the keys to today’s lessons is, “Hey, if I’m 100 doors and all I really want to do is get to 200 because the cash flow just looks so amazing then I want to go to 300. How do I best do it?” There’s some real super rules that I’m going to walk you through on how to do that.
I’ve switched screens here now, for those who are listening. If you don’t have a people manager, you’ll have staff turnover, more than you want staff turnover. You’ll notice that it’s easier to get bad reviews than it is to get good reviews because you don’t have inspired staff on your team. You’re going to hit a slower growth process because normally what happens is, the entrepreneurs grows the business to the first 100, 200 doors and then, unless the entrepreneur replaces him or herself and stays working in BDM or business development and growth, then they’re going to slow down on their growth. They won’t know what to do to kickstart the growth because they’re so busy putting out fires because they’re not a people manager. Their lifestyle will suffer and they’ll say, “I’m not having any fun.”
Jason: You’re referring to inspired staff. I heard this phrase several years ago that’s always stuck with me that I believe it’s true, that I love sharing with people connected to this and it’s, “Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control. Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control.” What ends up happening is, as entrepreneurs, because we’re generally really driven, risk-oriented somewhat and we’re willing to do things that other people aren’t willing to do—and sometimes we’re more sales-oriented and driven—by default if we’re not able to get people to do things, we start just controlling.
The opposite is to make them inspired and they just do it. You’ll end up with these business owners that are trying to micromanage, push their team, control them, force goals on them, and they aren’t inspired to do any of it. These are the team members that are B players, that’s the only ones that will stick around in a situation like that, and they are the ones that are complaining about you, the boss, and they go home and live for the weekend. They’re just hoping to get a paycheck. That creates a company culture of hiders, they’re hiding.
Todd: They’re hiding even when they’re at work. They might hide behind their voicemail. What’s the solution? We pointed out that if you are a small business and you want to go to large, at some stage you’re going to need a people manager. You can actually hire a local people manager which might cost you $50,000 or $80,000—depending on where you are—or you can hire a virtual people manager for some of the tasks at your business. By doing that, you’re now a well-rounded business. You have the entrepreneur, you have the virtual and local employees, and you have a virtual people manager.
We’re going to ask you guys to rate your business. How do you rate for systems? If you’re listening to this right now, “Am I systemized, yes or no?” And if you answer is, “Yeah, I’ve got a system for everything.” If I hire somebody, I sit in my desk, and they can open a training manual, and they can open policies and procedures manual and all of the answers are there. If the answer is that you’ve got your policies, procedures, and systems setup, then you’re halfway there to being able to onboard people.
A lot of people, small business owners, and entrepreneurs, they do the trial by fire. They’ll hire somebody, sit him at the desk and say, “Figure it out,” and if the person survives, then they walk through the fire, and if not, they burn up, burn out, or they leave, or they get fired. And that’s all due to a lack of systems, policies, and procedures.
Now, what I’ve seen is that in the 0-150 doors, unless you have a franchise that they’re giving you every system that you could imagine, and even some that you don’t need, and then you tailor them to your local market, unless you’re one of those people who has bought or created your own systems, policies, and procedures, then from 0-150, you’re winging it. You’re figuring it out yourself and it’s all in your head. If you’re listening to this you’ll say, “Yeah, that’s me.” Then what’s going to happen whether you hire a local staff or a virtual staff and it’s all in your head?
Jason: For those listening, they can break it down even further because in a business there’s not just like one system. A lot of people think, I just need a process system for processes. Every business needs some sort of sales system in their business. They need a communication system as a team in order to communicate effectively. They need a planning system in their business—which a lot of businesses don’t really have—for setting goals and milestones and allowing people to know what outcomes that are being worked towards. They need an accounting system, and they need a process system, if I didn’t already say that, for documenting, capturing all the process. Whether it’s a manual or something like Process Tree. And they need a support system for managing all the customer requests and everything else. They might be a 10 on 1 of these and a 1 on another. It really takes all of these different systems. And then you need processes for all the documented.
Todd: What happens is in those 0-150, most entrepreneurs still haven’t even started with these systems. From the 150-500, they slowly come to realize that, “These systems are going to make me or break me.” By the way, we’ve outsourced for large businesses that are over 500 and they still have horrible systems, horrible policies, horrible procedures, and believe it or not, really interesting staff and that’s the nice way to put it.
Jason: That’s probably the norm which is sad. Occasionally, you’ll see the conversed side where you’ll see somebody that is super systems-oriented entrepreneur. They’re basically an operator trying to function as the CEO. They will focus so much on process, and operations, and systems and they have no revenue.
Todd: It went off work and they’re not growing. If you’re good at systems, give yourself a pat on the back with your policies and procedures.
The next we’re going to talk about is your HR. If you;re going to grow your business and scale it and have quality and lifestyle, you have to have HR that can find good people. Then you have to get those people trained, and training does not mean you sit up the desk and figure it out, it means, before we put people to work on their tasks, nobody goes to work with less than one week of training. That’s 40 hours of specific human training. It’s a live trainer, training somebody with what’s our business, what’s out vision, mission, values, and then how do you do the actual tasks that you’ve been hired to do.
Supervision is quality assurance and etc. If you have all of those things, probably, you’re closer to 500 and more doors. If you’re missing any of those things, you’re probably in that 0-400 doors. You can say, “I’m good at some, but man, I got major holes and others.” That really impacts how you should outsource. I’ve got a graph up on the screen. The graph talks about if I am rough on my systems or rough on my HR, in other words, if I didn’t rate myself high on that last five minutes of conversation, how should I outsource. The answer is, you have three choices: You can hire your own virtual assistant direct by going to the destination country, for instance, the Philippines, wherever, and you can run your ad and try and hire somebody. Not recommended for anybody of any size that’s rough on their systems or rough on their HR for obvious reasons.
Jason: Yeah. You’re setting them up for failure.
Todd: Yeah. I see people say, “I don’t need a reseller or a turn-key. I’ll just do it myself.” I’m like, “How are you doing with your systems and you HR with you onshore operations because that’s going to directly impact or give you an insight into how your offshore is going to be?” And then they look at me and say, “Yeah, not so good.” I’m like, “Well, running out of the country isn’t going to make it better.”
The first option is to hire your own virtual staff direct. The second is hire a VA reseller which is either a recruiter or somebody who will actually stick around after they recruit for you. And then the third option is, “Hey, I just want a turnkey solution that will take care of it for me. In other words, I want staff but I’m paying you to also provide me good systems and processes and good HR because I don’t have that yet. In fact, I don’t think I’m going to have it anytime soon because I’m busy in that 0-150 doors just getting volume and growing my business.”
If I can figure out a way to affordably get good systems and HR brought into me by outsourcing, that sounds like a dream job to me. This tells you that turnkey is your number one solution. If you can go to somebody that offers turnkey outsourcing and just give them some process or system or some of the workflow from your business, and then it’s called set it and forget it, and just manage the results, you’ll be thrilled.
If you hire a reseller, you may or may or be thrilled based on how well systemized those systems are for the work that you give. “Have you got a system, or policy, and procedure for the specific work that you’re giving?” And/or, “How good are you at managing onshore staff and how well do you think you could manage some offshore staff?”
Jason: Right.
Todd: Let me go to the next screen which is a hiring guide; if you have good systems already in place and you have a people manager. In my case my wife, in your case, if you have somebody who’s a good people manager, wow, what should I do? The answer is, the world is your oyster. You can do turnkey from 0-150 and that allows you to just focus on growing your business. And then when you start hiring locally, from 150-600 doors, it means that it’s one last thing to worry about. Now, 600 and more doors, you’d be looking at a big bill from a turnkey operator and you’d be saying, “Look, I can do this myself. I should take this over inhouse with either my own DA resellers,” where I pay a recruiter to hire me an offshore staff, or by going to the destination country yourself to hire which can all be done virtually or you can actually take some trips depending on how far away you go.
But good systems, good HR, and a people manager is important before you start hiring individual offshore staff that are going to report to you and work for you directly. Does that make sense?
Jason: Absolutely. I think people really need to realize that they need to figure out what’s the best fit and works for them. One of the biggest mistakes I see people really early on is their default thought is, “I need to go hire somebody like me right here in the US.” That’s the first employee. They’re like, “I need to go get another me and duplicate myself,” and they’re doing 20 different things; they’re wearing 20 different hats. They go to try to hire and they’re not ready for that. They can’t even bring on somebody, they really should with technology and just start with outsourcing solutions like Virtually inCredible because you’re bringing to the table a lot of the stuff they aren’t even aware of that they might need yet.
Todd: One of the things that I outsource at my management company, for those who are listening who aren’t aware, I had a property management company since 1985. I used to absolutely hate the answering my leasing calls because I knew if I didn’t answer them during the day then I had no return calls. I knew if I didn’t answer them in the evening or on the weekend then I wasn’t going to fill my vacancies and I’d have to return more messages. My phone was glued to my ear. I decided to outsource my leasing calls and so many other managers heard about and said, “Will you take my calls too?”
It’s such a systemized process with us that it’s not like you could just hire somebody if you’re 120 doors. You can’t hire somebody for what you pay us because you’re going to pay more for your outsourced people, and they’ll only answer 40 hours a week, and we’re answering 80 plus hours a week. There’s a stage which it makes sense to take it over yourself, but there’s a stage where you just say, “Get rid of this and let me focus on other stuff.”
When we talk about capacity in online reviews, this is the DoorGrow Show and Jason, I’m one of your customers for the review, what’s the software you have?
Jason: GatherKudos.
Todd: GatherKudos, thank you. I think we’ve had it for several years. We’ve had good reviews in my management company and that’s because we offer good service, and we ask for the reviews. Seasonal workload variations can actually impact your reviews. Let me explain to you why. I’m going to show you what the variations look like. This is what your work orders look like. This is from Super Tenders. Hundreds of thousands of doors went into this. In January until May, you don’t have near the work orders that you do in June, July, August, September and then it’s slower a little bit again in the fall. You’ve literally got double the work orders between April and July. April is half of what July is. How do you staff for that in your business?
Jason: Yeah. The question is, “Are you going to just double staff and then fire half your staff every season?”
Todd: What happens is, if you look at when you get your bad reviews from tenants who are tired of work orders taking forever to get done, you’re getting those reviews typically, not April, you get them in June, July, August, September. That’s when the majority of bad reviews come in. It’s no secret, if you’re not staffed for the increase in volume, you’re going to have a problem. At my management company, we use Property Meld to technology, really accelerates the communication process and then we use EZ Repair Hotline. Now I can outsource. I’m pretty good at it, but I hire somebody else to do my work order outsourcing because they’re pretty good at it. I haven’t chosen to do that in the Philippines yet and it’s got a US-based team.
What do they call about eating your own dog food or drinking your own Kool-Aid? I outsource to other people at my management company because it makes sense for me to do it and I’m under 300 doors. I’m not at that stage where it makes sense for me to take it over. The same goes for our leasing call volumes. This is data courtesy of Virtual inCredible. This is our call volumes across the entire United States on a monthly basis, and you can see, December’s the slowest month of the year. Thank goodness, right? Going into the holidays. November, December are great, but literally there’s double the volume between December and June. June is going to crush you and people say, “Man, I can’t answer my calls or my properties take longer to rent.” It’s because you’re not really staffed to handle it right.
This is called a heat map. For those of you who are listening, it’s a counter Monday through Sunday, and it shows the darker hours of the day are when we have higher call volumes and the lighter colors are lower call volumes. Throughout the course of the week, on an 80-hours of answering your calls, days, evening, and weekends, there’s a tremendous call volume variation between Monday all day. By the way, there is a reason why Mondays are Mondays. Your phone’s going to ring with your highest call volume on your leasing calls on Monday.
Jason: Compared from the weekend because we aren’t generally doing it over the weekend.
Todd: Or they didn’t get you on the weekend. It could that too. Wednesday is a calm day. How do you staff for that? When you’re at 120 doors. When it’s just all hands on deck at all times when you’re at that volume. It makes sense to just say, “Hey, take my calls. When I grow to a certain stage, I’ll take them back.” That’s where people are able to make a tremendous good decision for their business because if you’re under capacity, under staffed, you’re going to get bad reviews.
Jason: Yeah.
Todd: If you have sufficient capacity at all times throughout the season of workload variations, you can get good reviews if you ask for them. If you have too much capacity, too many staff, you’ll get good reviews but your profit will suffer. Managing that becomes a full time job when you go past 500 or 600 doors, you’ll start to do that yourself but under that, it just makes sense to outsource some of these stuff. It will save you a tremendous amount of time and money, it’ll make getting good reviews easier, it’ll make your staff happier to get rid of some of your high seasonal workload that varies a lot, and just outsource it until you’re big enough to take it back inhouse.
Jason: And if you’re built out to the point where you can handle the amount of seasonal growth and seasonal increase, then what happens during those lean times, you end up with team members that are sitting at unused capacity. Nobody likes being in a position, or a job in which they feel like they’re meaningless, or there’s lack of purpose except really bad team members that you wouldn’t want.
Todd: They’ll never tell you that they’re not busy.
Jason: Yes. They will never say, “Oh, I have so much extra time right now. I’m probably not relevant during these few months. I probably shouldn’t be here.” It makes a lot of sense.
Todd: If you’re a small company and growing, this is the last part, I don’t have slides for this, maybe I’ll stop sharing my screen.
Jason: I’ll point out, connected to that, it’s not a great investment to have a team member that’s sitting in the garage half the time not being used. Imagine you live in a big city, and you’re taking the subway all the time, and you have this expensive car that you’re maintaining constantly but you’re not using. Financially, it becomes incredibly costly to have a team that is under utilized especially if they’re US-based staff, they’re really expensive, and you’re not just able to use them. You’re [inaudible 00:34:56] the money whether you’re using them or not. They’re not making any money.
Todd: Can you imagine what it’s like being me? We’ve got hundreds of staff and our volume is following that curve. We figure out how to do it. There’s something I wanted to share. This is on a personal note from a guy who’s grown a management company through a few cycles. If you’re in that 150 or less, I want you to ask yourself, “Is it easy to get leads to grow my business?” If it is, great, if it’s not, check out DoorGrow, check out some great ways to get improve your leads.
Second is, “Am I too busy to grow my business being an operator instead of being an owner?” An owner knows how to grow a business and knows how to keep the capacity to grow the business open because that’s what it takes. You know, 60% or 70% of calls to a business are your leasing calls. When you’re sitting there answering somebody who says, “How much is that house with the red door?” You’re considering the brain damage that’s giving you. Meanwhile, your phone’s ringing on line two and it’s an owner who has a nice listing and you didn’t get to that call.
If you’re struggling to grow your business and you have leads, but you’re not growing your business, man, clear your plate, get rid of some of your work, and grow your business. You can always take it back. And then work on reducing your labor costs. If you’re in the stage in your business where, “Oh I don’t get enough leads or I don’t want to grow my business.” Well then fine tune your business, that’s great. But as long as you can grow and you want to grow, clear your plate and move forward on growth which is your highest dollar.
People are valuing management companies at between $2000 and $4000 per door. Each new listing that you can sign up is going to increase your net worth, your asset value of your company by $2000 or $3000. If you can get five new listings in a month, and that’s worth $3000 a listing, we’re talking $10,000-$15,000, that’s what you’re increasing your net worth. You grow up that rate in a year and you’re $150,000 and $200,000 in your net worth. It’s all because you’re focused on growth and clearing the decks to make it possible. That’s what it takes to grow your business.
Then as you bring in the new volume of work, decide carefully, “Should I insource or outsource? Do I have a people manager or don’t I? What’s the best way that’s going to keep the machine moving forward?” That’s what I tell people because if they fail that outsourcing, I usually say, “Well, who’s the people manager?” And when the entrepreneur says, “I am.” I’m like, “Oh, okay.”
Jason: It didn’t work for me. You just did it wrong.
Todd: Did you learn something, Jason? Relative to your world and your lives that you’ve been living with our outsourcing?
Jason: Absolutely. All of these makes so much sense. Over the last decade, I’ve had plenty of failures in outsourcing things or I’m trying to do things. I think if I were to add one thing to this is one thing that has really helped me is to not underestimate or overestimate technology. Because technology, like you mentioned, like Property Meld for example, technology is another tool besides outsourcing that creates leverage, and lowers operational costs, and lower staffing cost.
A lot of people will try to go cheap on software. I believe that when it comes to software, you want the best tools, the best softwares. I have spent a lot of money on software tools and I buy the best. I don’t buy the Swiss Army knife that can do everything crapily or terribly, but I buy the best in each category to make sure we have the best systems for process, or the best communications system in our business. That allows my team to get more done, and be more efficient, and more effective.
Whether you’re going to outsource directly or you’re going to outsource to companies, make sure that you have the best tools available software-wise because even if software costs you hundreds of dollars a month, people are always going to be more. If you can give them the tools that they need to do the job well, you’re collapsing your cost and making them far more efficient, and it always pays off.
Todd: Very true. Listen, if anyone has any questions about this, I’ll just briefly tell you how we can help you at our company. We do answer your leasing calls, we also have a tenant screening department. That scales too because you get your number of applications in the summer, is a heck a lot more than it is in the winter. We do that. Those are full termkey systems, where you’re actually putting a department into place and you don’t need a local department to do either of those tasks.
In addition to that, we also have a brand new service where we’ll hire an individual VA for you with or without phone skills. You can get an admin VA or you can get a CSR, a customer service rep that can answer calls for you, and they’re all screened by our company and trained in property management. I used to be a trainer for the Property Management Academy. We put all of our people through all of that training now before they show up at your job. You get screening and training though our VA. If you like some more information, just send an email to todd@virtuallyincredible.com. Be happy to help you out however I can.
Jason: Awesome. For those listening, when we put on our conference, DoorGrow Live, we gave Virtually inCredible an award because they have consistently been one of the best in class or the best in their category for what they do inside the DoorGrow Club and inside the feedback that we hear from clients. It’s not just my recommendation, it’s a recommendation of a lot of people, and you provide a really good experience for people. You are making a difference in the industry.
Todd: Yeah, thanks. We’re having a ball and appreciate all you’re doing to help people grow with creative ways that aren’t obvious. I’ve been through some of your education, it’s really high quality. Thank you for what you do.
Jason: Appreciate it. Todd, thanks so much for coming on the show, and appreciate you sharing all these insights. I think there’s some solid takeaways that people listening this show. I think some rising like start with technology, then start with outsourcing to a solution like Virtually inCredible, and then maybe once you start getting some things dialed in, you might want to start bringing the staff in-house eventually, but you may not. It’s going well. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Todd: That’s right.
Jason: Todd, thanks again.
Todd: Alright, guys. Take care.
Jason: Alright, it’s great having Todd on the show. Again, to make sure to check out the previous episodes in which we talked specifically about leasing lines and the challenges with those with Todd. You can just search for Todd Breen and DoorGrowShow, one word.
If you are listening to this on iTunes, be sure to give us your feedback in iTunes, they helps us out, also makes us aware of how you feel about the show. We love getting your feedback on these different shows, and make sure you are inside our Facebook community where you can hang out with cool people like Todd and other really savvy entrepreneurs. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com and this is a community unlike any other. It’s a special community of property management business owners that believe in this vision and message that collaboration is more significant and important than competition in what this industry needs right now.
If you love the idea of collaboration and helping level up the entire industry, we’re just going to help every property management business owner succeed and grow this business and industry and get more market share then that’s the place for you, that’s your home. Join us in the DoorGrow Club. Thanks everybody for tuning in. Until next time to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.
You just listened to the DoorGrow show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff: SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com.
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How often do you get complaints from the inside sales team about the outside sales team, and vice versa? “I can’t…I didn’t know...” Every business experiences the challenge of what a salesperson says and actually happens. It’s a constant struggle to make sure the sales team correctly relays what’s going to be done and the team accurately fulfills what the salesperson sells. How can you bridge the gap between inside and outside sales teams?
Today, I am talking with Jennifer Stoops, senior vice president at Park Avenue Properties. She shares how external and internal sales teams can work together effectively. After all, they’re on the same team working toward the same goal. Work together, instead of separately!
[04:55] Definition and difference between inside and outside sales. [06:22] Three Cs: Collaboration, contribution, and communication.
[08:49] Find a good personality fit for property management.
[14:09] Red flags to watch out for during hiring process.
[16:50] Align goals to facilitate and mitigate hatred, animosity, and frustration.
[22:06] Involve property manager for transparency and transition with sales process.
[24:45] Metrics to Measure: New doors and retention.
[27:40] Client and Customer Retention: Change how you sell to them to build a long-term relationship.
[28:20] Park Avenue Properties plans to move to one system, but now uses Knack, an internally produced business development tool.
[31:00] Gamify sources of motivation (recognition or money); make a grueling job fun.
[35:30] Seek buy in and feedback from clients; what problem can you solve for them?
Three Cs: Collaboration, contribution, and communication.
Metrics to Measure: New doors and retention.
A property manager is conflict resolution all the time.
Involve property manager for transparency and transition with sales process.
Jennifer Stoops’ Email Address
Jennifer Stoops’ Phone Number: 704-334-2626
DoorGrowClub Facebook Group
Jennifer: There is an integration of the property manager pretty early on because otherwise, business development has established this great relationship in the beginning, promised the world, and in comes the property manager who's like, “I'm sorry, your property has been on the market now for 30 days, but we're going to have to lower the rate.”
Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to The DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and expand your rent roll, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker.
At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to grow property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, expand the market, and help the best property managers win. If you enjoy this episode, do me a favor. Open up iTunes, find The DoorGrowShow, subscribe, and then give us a real review. Thank you for helping us with that vision. I'm your host, property management growth hacker Jason Hull, the founder of OpenPotion, GatherKudos, ThunderLocal and of course DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show.
Today's episode, I am hanging out with a bubbly, fantastic, wonderful lady named Jennifer Stoops. Jennifer, welcome to the show.
Jennifer: Hi Jason. Thank you for having me. I appreciate the invite.
Jason: It’s great to have you here. I'm sure we're going to go off on some tangents here because that's just how you and I talk. We're going to be talking about bridging the gap between inside and outside sales. Jennifer is part of a company called Park Avenue Properties and those watching this instead of listening, can see this big sign behind her. Jennifer, tell everybody a bit about who Jennifer is and give us a little bit of back story on you.
Jennifer: Interestingly enough, when I moved to North Carolina in early 2007, I interviewed with John Bradford. I just got my real estate license here in North Carolina and interviewed with John in March of 2007. It is the only job I have had since I lived in North Carolina. I actually graduated with a four-year degree. I'm from Buffalo, New York. I graduated with a four-year degree and I went to work at a dental practice of all things. I had no idea that I even remotely wanted to get into the dental field but she was looking for a business manager.
My degree was in business and communications. I put myself through school so I couldn't go for my MBA right away. It was just too costly at the time. After working in this pediatric dental office for about six months, the dentist sat me down and she said, “Would you consider going back to school?” and I was like, “Well sure, for what?” and she said, “We'd like for you to be a hygienist with us,” and she said, “Your personality is better with the patients than doing your insurance stuff,” and I said, “Sure.”
I am a retired dental hygienist turned property manager, long story short. I’ve always had an interest in real estate but coming from Buffalo, New York, it was not a terribly lucrative field there. Nobody was moving to Buffalo, they're all moving out and I ended up doing the same. I started here as the first property manager. I've been here almost 12 years. I just worked my way up.
Jason: When you started there, how many doors did the company manage?
Jennifer: At that time, probably 30-ish. John and his aunt were working at the company at that time. She did the books. She was also licensed. John had actually gotten his real estate license on the side. He was a sales executive at IBM. The 30-ish properties we were managing were a combination of his and business colleagues. He came from IBM and ExxonMobil background. It was a combination of those folks and we've just grown from there.
Jason: Where are you guys at now? Give people a little bit of perspective.
Jennifer: We are currently at just about 1400 doors.
Jason: You guys are one of the rare ones that have broken that thousand door threshold. That’s a pretty large outfit that you guys have got going on. My understanding is, John basically lets you run this thing now.
Jennifer: Yes, that’s true. It’s probably been about four years actually since he’s been, as he said, at the wheel. It’s been about that long.
Jason: One of the challenges that you've seen over the years is this difference between outside and inside sales. Maybe you could explain to those listening that may not be clear on what your definition is of those two things, but what are those and what sort of challenge exist there?
Jennifer: In property management outside and inside sales, I think everybody at least has, —whether it's your property manager or otherwise—in our organization, if we’re going to about ours, our outside sales would be business development folks. Those that are calling on owners, potentially visiting the properties. Inside sales are our property managers really. That's the inside counterpart. Previously, before we had grown to where we are today, I would have been considered outside sales as a property manager and we had some support team that would help be sort of inside sales. But in our world today, it's our business development folks and then our property managers internally.
Jason: Got it. What is the challenge that you’ve noticed? This is a challenge I think every business has experienced, the difference between what the salesperson is saying and what ends up actually happening. This is a constant struggle in any business, making sure that the sales team is correctly relaying what is actually going to be done and the team actually fulfilling accurately on what the salesperson is selling.
Jennifer: Absolutely. I look at it like there's three Cs. There's collaboration, contribution, and communication. Of course, communication being the key to everything. Honestly, we've recognized you have to have all three of those to make it work right. We had even fallen into the trap and it really hasn't been that long that we've been in a mode where we’re weighing this in a little bit better.
Internal complaint is always the same. “I cannot get the rent rate that business development promised. I can't honor the contract the way business development wrote it. I didn't know they agreed to these terms and now it’s special circumstances. Now I have to try to go manage. I now have to relay to the owner that they have to do these things to make a property rent-ready.” That would frustrate the internal team. The external team was, go close the deal, get contracts signed, turn it over to the internal team, and move on. There was no further engagement between the two. There was not a lot of collaboration. There was not a lot of communication leading up to the execution of the contract, the terms, the rental rate.
We decided we had to change that. That has helped tremendously. We look at it like our complementary roles now. Business development outside has a counterpart inside which is really your property manager. When our business development team is signing on a new property, they are signing it to a property manager internally. You're talking to that homeowner for the first time, so you know if somebody is a little bit more just very, very business. You can probably turn them over to somebody internally that has very similar personalities with multiple property managers here.
You may have somebody that's a brand new investor and needs a little bit more hand-holding. You might want to put them in touch with one of the more deliberate, or hand-holding, or soft-spoken individuals internally. The big E person can read that, but you have to get to know your internal team and that doesn't necessarily mean being in the office. There's a lot of firms, including ours, a lot of firms today that have grown. You've got maybe one main office and business development people in various markets, but you have Zoom. We were doing that right now, so you can get to know somebody, learn about them, and really feel connected to them as a teammate utilizing things like technology and stuff like that as well.
Jason: What are things that you do as a company then to really make sure that the communication is there, that the collaboration is there, that contribution is focused on? I guess at the foundation, it would start with the right team members. What are some mechanisms that you put in place? How do you identify whether somebody's going to really be a good fit on the property management side, or on the outside sales, or the BDM side?
Jennifer: A lot of it has to do with personality. Really, you can ask folks, too. There’s a lot of folks that'll tell you upfront, “I have no business being a forefront in sales. I prefer to be in the background.” Salespeople are historically not ultra-organized. They tend to be very chatty, very social, and folks that are more on the organized side tend to not want to be in sales roles. They feel that it can be very disorganized and they don't enjoy that. We learned that with folks around here.
When we have team members, oftentimes too when you're trying to figure out their appropriate roles, you can determine good people when you interview them. We just said the other day, too, we should do this more at the interview process, but we do tend to do it afterwards. We've done some of the shortened versions like the personality profile testing, things like that. It just sort of get engaged. More often than not, people are usually asked about. They'll tell you upfront. But you're right, it is very important to have the right people on the right team.
Jason: Yeah. I use a lot of assessments because I'm a nerd when I'm hiring, because I don't want to just go off of my gut. I want something that I can look at that helps me make things real clear.
Jennifer: It’s probably much smarter to do it that way. A lot less harder.
Jason: I love the idea of just simply asking people. One of my favorite things to ask when interviewing candidates to work at DoorGrow is to simply ask them what they most love doing and what really drains them. A lot of people listening are probably thinking, “Well, nobody's going to be honest. They're just going to say whatever the job is,” so the way that I usually phrase this is I’ll just say I’ll be honest and disclose first like what makes me uncomfortable, what I'm not good at, what drains me, the stuff that makes me feel alive, and that I love doing. I’ll just transparently share that and then I’ll say all these things that I dislike, that's why all these different people on my team have a job. That’s why they're there, because I need them for those roles to support me.
Then I’ll ask them, “What drains you?” I usually preface it by just saying, “There's lots of different things that we do in this company,” which is always true. “There's so many different things you could be doing and I know that if I have you do the things you love most, that you are naturally going to do a great job at it, because that is just what you're inclined to do. I’ll never have to motivate you to do it. I won't have to follow-up to make sure you're doing it. You’re just going to do it because you love doing that. I want to make sure I get really clear on what you love because I want this job to be something you love. Tell me what you love and what drains you,” and I usually get a pretty honest answer. Most of the time, they're really honest. I'm surprised how honest they are once I preface all of that, at the things they'll tell me that drain them that they don't like. Sometimes it’s stuff that's in the job description. I go, “Okay, this is maybe not a good fit for that person.”
Jennifer: One of the things that I do, like you, you're trying to get honest answers, is I'll ask, “What do you like to do in your spare time?” That can tell you a lot about a person and it’s sort of an ending question to the interview because to your point, you're usually told what you want hear as it pertains to the job description and whatnot. And exactly, we don't want people to take a role that they will not enjoy at the end of the day.
It's hard to describe every single thing in any of our roles. In property management, my gosh, there's so many moving parts. But you learn very quickly when you ask somebody, “What do you enjoy doing in your spare time?” If somebody says, “I enjoy quiet time. I enjoy reading. I enjoy time by myself,” that's probably not going to be your salesperson.
Jason: Probably inside.
Jennifer: Right. Those that are like, “I belong to a charity organization. I'm on a kickball league. I volunteer at this and I sing in a choir,” whatever, that's probably more on your outside team.
Jason: Yeah, it makes sense. I like that. That’s clever, asking what they do in their spare time. I think also when you ask just about their daily life and what they do in their spare time, they also reveal some of their propensities towards either organization, or towards maybe things that are more driven activities, which might be more outside sales. They’re more driven towards activities. I think that's clever. What are some big red flags to somebody that’s just a really bad fit for outside sales or might not be good at communication, contribution, or collaboration?
Jennifer: For outside sales, it is the folks that are, “I prefer to work by myself. I prefer to work independently. I don't like to talk on the phone.” They get nervous with having to speak to customers. There are certain little things that’ll come out when you learn that because this is development. In any organization, there's a lot of not only talking to the customer but branding whatever company it is. Maybe you and I were both at the same conference. You're out there, I'm there branding Park Avenue as an attendee, but still representing the brand as you are for yours. When people are not necessarily wanting to be in a social situation or things like that, that's going to be a problem. Those are red flags.
Jason: What about red flags on the inside side? You're looking for a candidate for the inside that you want them to be a property manager, what are some things to say, “This person's not going to be able to handle this. They’re not going to last in this role,” because that can be a challenging role, dealing with all the maintenance stuff, dealing with upset tenants. It takes a fairly resilient person, I would imagine, to deal with that.
Jennifer: Yeah, it’s that conflict resolution. If people tell you, “I don't enjoy conflict. I struggle with conflict,” that's a big one because a property manager is conflict resolution all the time. You don't need for it to be, but you're a middle man between an owner and a tenant, so you have to. Or if they give you the, “I know the hours are 9-6, but if I left a little early on these days a week...,” or I've had folks say, “Is this job always in the office? Because I don't enjoy being in an office all day every day,” that's like, “Yeah, it kind of is.” That may be a candidate for outside sales, but you still have conflict resolution even in outside sales because that goes back to the collaboration that we've learned.
I think business development in outside sales didn't normally have to deal with that. Really, the conflict was coming from the disconnect between inside and outside. But business development folks or outside sales were kind of [...] and the conflict resolution and all the other problem-solving things were coming from the inside team. That was creating the disconnect between the two teams. We're all on the same side, so we had to figure out how to go fix that.
Jason: Yeah. Then in tech companies, where you had the sales team and what they would sell, and then you'd have the fulfillment side would hate the sales team. There is this animosity that was tangible inside the companies I would see, in which the billing department, or the fulfillment department, or whatever, were like, “The sales guys are always selling stuff. They said it wrong. They’re not doing it right,” and there's this frustration. How do you facilitate this bridge between the two to mitigate that? Let’s say you got the right people in place. How do you ensure that there's a really good understanding on both sides of what their capabilities are and what's accurate?
Jennifer: We actually started to align the goals. Business development roles have a tendency to operate on bonus structure. Obviously, it's sales. Its target, its bonuses, its goals. We’ve recognized that even though the folks internal are generally W2-based salary employees. There is a way to align that to where they win together, they lose together, a shoulder-to-shoulder approach. What we had done was we created transparency. We aligned the goals. The goal for the entire organization is new business and retaining business.
Previously, we would run into issues where business development would close the deal, turn it over, move on. Now, the way that we have it structured, they get a portion of their bonus structure at the execution of the agreement, but the balance of it doesn't happen until the property is rented for the first time. It forces the two to stay engaged. We've created a clear path of collaboration between the two as far as, business development will make the call, they may negotiate some of the terms, but the contract which wasn't done this way previously, will actually be sent out now by the property manager.
Not that we're trying to put more work on the property manager’s [...], document signed doesn't take that long, but it forces the two of them to talk about the terms that were agreed to with the homeowner. Prior to the contract given going out, the collaboration on the rental rate happens. An inspection of the property happens, so the two of them are looking at the inspection to come to terms with what the owner may need to do to the property to make it rent-ready.
Previously, all of those things were done by BD in advance. Once everything was executed and a rent rate was given, the BD person was not normally telling an owner what needs to be done to prep the property. Now all a sudden, the property manager is in the picture. They receive a new contract, now they're looking at the terms going, “This is not something I normally do, so now I have to go to [...] for this owner,” or whatever the special circumstances are that they now have to go figure out how to manage. “Gosh, I don't think we can get this rent rate.” So we made it to where they win together, they lose together. They're all watching the same metrics now as it pertains to that. They both have a collaboration and a bonus structure tied to it.
Jason: Yeah, because one of the big challenge is if you get a closer on your team, they can close deals, and you put them in a position that it's simply about getting a deal on and not the longevity of that relationship with the client or the customer, they're going to delegate the deals. They’ll still close one and they'll move on to the next one. Those might not be a good fit for the business. They might not be a good fit for the team. They're less inclined to make sure that what the message that they're sharing is accurate. They're far less inclined to make sure that they have really good communication with the fulfillment side of the business, to know what can be done and that sort of thing, because their financial reward isn't connected to that. I love that and I love basically what you're saying. It sounds like you’ve created a much more gradual transition from one department to another. A lot of people view it as you're sales, and then there's this clear cut-off, and then boom, you're with other people.
Jennifer: Owners don’t like that either. That's right and the client didn't like that. Yes, it is a more gradual approach now where there's an integration of the property manager pretty early on because otherwise, business development has established this great relationship in the beginning, promised the world, and in comes the property manager who's like, “I'm sorry, your property has been on the market now for 30 days, but we're going to have to lower the rate,” and that then sets the tone. Now, business development’s getting a phone call from said owner to go, “Wait a minute, you told me I could get this and now this person that is managing my property is telling me we can't get that,” and it makes everybody go backwards. It's a much slower process for turning it over so that the homeowner doesn't feel like it’s either a bait and switch, or that they're just left at the altar when business development moves on.
Jason: I imagine other property managers that are listening or property management business owners listening to this, they could probably start to implement some of this even in their companies that are smaller, simply by getting the property manager involved earlier on with the person that's doing the sales. A lot of times, that's the business owner. But if they have managers, it might be wise for them to start transitioning as soon as possible to somebody else.
I think what that also does is it frees up the BDM. There's a lot of work that the property manager can help facilitate in building that relationship and in onboarding the client. I think that helps the sales process. It helps transition them into just being a client and going into that delivery or fulfillment stage of business, which is going to free up time for the BDM to spend more time selling, I would imagine.
Jennifer: Yes and we’ve created transparency, too. We’ve used technology besides doing consistent touch points. Right now, I had gotten back engaged in doing a lot of the BD. I'm generally here with most of the team. We meet regularly to talk about the CRM because everybody can see our customer care team takes telephone calls, puts the lead into the CRM, everybody gets alerted. They know on the rotation which property manager it's going to get assigned to.
The property manager knows there's something coming down the pipeline. They can see whether it's me or anybody else doing the business development side of it, where they are in the transaction, has contact been made, where are we in the process. Once it gets to a certain point where the owner is ready for a contract, we will go ahead and then collaborate. “Let's look at the rental comps together. What else do you have available in the neighborhood currently that we're managing? Are we competing against something else?” So there's a collaboration.
We also have transparency not only in the CRM and to know where we are with the leads, but we got to make it fun. This is a very thankless job, it's a very hard job, there's a lot of moving parts that everybody has to deal with every day. We have actually used technology that talks to our CRM which is an internal one that we have and then our property management software. It’s a tool called Klipfolio. It’s awesome because it makes graphs and things like that. If we say, “The target for Team Liberty is 10 new doors this month,” then every time something new comes in, they close it out in the CRM, and they mark it a closed deal, their graph changes. Both internal and external can see where they are in their target to go get as it pertains to new doors and retention. Those are two metrics that internal and external teams are both responsible for. It’s helping with retention. Everybody in the organization needs to help with retention and new growth. Those two metrics in particular are a collaboration between the two teams.
Jason: Absolutely. It’s really important in business to focus on the entire life cycle and the lifetime value in extending that, rather than just on sales and closing deals. What ends up happening on companies that just focus on closing a deal on sales is that fulfillment on all of those companies tends to take a backseat, tends to start to suffer and struggle because their focus is just on getting revenue in. If the goal needs to be on revenue as a whole in aggregate, lifetime value, building up the longevity of these contracts, keeping clients on, the number one prospect that most businesses have is their existing customer.
Jennifer: That's exactly right.
Jason: We’re always stoked on getting new ones which is exciting, but we want to make sure that we keep one. There's no point in getting on a new deal if you lose one.
Jennifer: Right. I think every property management firm across the country for the most part, several that I've talked to over the last few months, I know for us last year was our biggest one but for the last couple years, have experienced attrition due to sales. The sales market has come back. To your point, the internal customers that you already have, if somebody says, “Hey, when my tenant move out, I'd like to go ahead and sell the property,” why not try to retain that business and now send something out to all of your homeowner's letting them know, “Hey, we've got a property that another one of our clients is looking to sell. Is anybody interested in buying it?” I'm sort of talking about it at a 30,000 feet view.
That's something that we went ahead and implemented where we’re periodically sending a letter out to all of our owners. It’s an email format but it's not just an email. It looks like it’s a little letter that goes out and just letting them know, “Hey, if you want to buy more, the market is good for that. If you're interested in selling, let us know because we have others that are interested in buying.” That's still a door safe. It’s another sale all over again. That’s something that's also very important. That’s why retention is something that had to not only be tracked internally.
Business development was a little bit surprised when we were saying, “Look, you have to help with retention too,” but you do because internally, they may need some help in trying to convince person X as to why this particular property is good. The messaging has to be the same too about the firm. What is it we are selling? What is our firm [...]? What sets us apart? We need to have an aligned message on that.
Jason: Yeah. The way in which I found that for my own business and for the clients that I coach in sales, one of the number one things that impacts with client and customer retention is just how they're sold in the beginning. It changes how you sell if you're selling for the long term. It changes how you build and create that relationship and if that relationship is built well in the beginning, the lifetime value and the chances that they're going to stay with you longer is far more likely than if you just get the win and close the deal, and move on. That changes how that happens.
I've a couple of questions. One, what CRM do you guys use? Do you have a sales CRM? And then you have your customer portal and back office that you're keeping track of. Are those separate or are you trying to do everything in one system?
Jennifer: No. We're probably going to move to one system. Today, have we actually use something that we actually created internally, it’s a software called KNACK. We developed that to be our business development tool but also attracts a bunch of our other metrics and things. We have multiple tabs in it. We actually changed the name to it. We call it Grand Central Station in our office here.
It tracks our retention. It tracks all of the metrics that our property management teams and our business development team, those that they have to watch together. Then of course internally with respect to maintenance and work orders. Even internally, they're still doing sales. It’s a different kind of sales. Retention is sales. Keeping a homeowner happy is still sales. Tenant retention is sales. It’s just a different kind than the initial close of a deal. Even internally, the system is tracking lease renewals, it’s tracking tenant retention, it’s tracking how quickly we’re doing maintenance work orders because there is a direct correlation to how quickly even normal regular maintenance gets handled and tenants staying longer in the property.
Maintenance is the number one reason tenants leave. We have a system that we developed internally. Zoho actually is another tool that we use but it works more with our emails right now. Interestingly enough, they have a ton of tools that can be used. I think we may be moving in that direction . But today, we use KNACK and then we use this Klipfolio. Klipfolio is what actually creates the fun stuff. It creates the pie charts and the graphs, so everybody can see.
Jason: It’s more of a dashboard.
Jennifer: Yeah. That’s exactly what it is. It’s our dashboard. It shows everybody where we’re at.
Jason: You've got your own system for keeping track of some of your metrics and tracking data. You've got this thing that will take the data and print it in pretty charts so the team can see a scoreboard so they know whether they're winning or losing. Then you also have your back office, I would imagine, for accounting, keeping track of properties, and all of that that you do. I want people to be clear that you weren't just doing all of this in one magical unicorn system.
Jennifer: No. It takes a lot to put it all together.
Jason: The other thing I wanted to point out is, you talked about kind of gamifying this for your team. I think it's important for people listening to recognize that these two personality types that we’re really describing here that both need each other and help each other, that can work together, have very different motivators. I think as entrepreneurs, one of the big mistakes that we make a lot of times—I was talking with clients this morning about this—we’re very money driven. We’re very money-motivated. That’s a reward that we'd like to get.
We mistakenly assume that everybody on our team are money-motivated, or economically- or financially-driven. It usually is not the case. Most people are the opposite but outside sales people, BDMs, they are usually the good ones, are money-motivated. They’re economically-driven. Financial rewards and bonuses could work for them but then you have this other side and they're not. I find that when people are not economically- or financially-motivated, they are recognition-motivated.
They want to be recognized. They want to be seen winning. They want to feel like they've contributed. They want to feel like a winner. That’s a very different sort of situation. I think it's important as business owners to understand that if you're going to gamify this, to not just make it monetary rewards. I see it all the time. Somebody’s like, “We can start a reputation game in our company and we'll just give everybody a financial bonus,” and then they're like, “Why aren't our maintenance coordinators getting so excited about getting more money?” But they do get excited about getting recognized, doing a good job, and being called out in front of everybody as being awesome. I think it's important to recognize that you don't always have to throw money at people to get them to do things. Sometimes, that doesn’t work.
Jennifer: It’s interesting, too. We do have some monetary bonus both for external and internal. Definitely, the sales folks, generally speaking, that is exactly what they're looking for. Internally, we have a few different ways that we do it. Just this year, we started our hall of fame. It’s our wall of stars. Each month, somebody is selected. For example in February, the person that stood out from the crowd in January was selected. Their picture goes up on the wall. It stays there. We have January through December up on the wall. Once their picture gets put up there, the picture stays up there. That's something that we implemented this year and that's exciting for them.
We do PTO time. It's amazing recognizing somebody and it doesn’t cost your organization anything to say, “You have a half a day. You've earned four hours PTO time as a bonus,” or, “If you meet these metrics, for each metric that you meet, it’s one hour of PTO time.” It's unbelievable how far that goes.
Little things, when we've had business development come into the office for those that can physically come in, we do what we call training trivia. We might be training on what our lease agreement says, or mention an agreement, or what our pitch is supposed to be like to our owners. What is our message about our firm.
I'm telling you, I go to the dollar store and buy these boxes of candy. As people are getting it right, they're taking from this big bag. You can get $20-$30 worth of candy. That’s like 30 boxes of candy and they're so excited. It’s little stuff like that. Even from a training perspective, we try to make it fun because it can be a very grueling job. It’s mentally taxing. You're a middle man between the tenant and the owner and their money. That's not a really great place to be on any given day. You go home and a tenant or an owner is not mad at you, that's a great day.
Jason: Yeah. Sometimes it's hurting cats, it's organized chaos, and lots of conflict resolution. Jennifer, this has been really fun, chatting about all of this. I think there's lots of ideas that’s been thrown around that are helpful. Any last thoughts on making this work between your inside team and your outside sales department? Especially for the property management businesses that are not at 1400 units, they're smaller, they're just getting started, and they've got a really small team, what do you think are some of the first things they should just start to try to tackle to make this work well?
Jennifer: I would ask people specifically, “What do you think we should be saying to new clients?” Really, it’s all about communication. Just ask. Even your internal folks, while they may not volunteer the information because in their mind, they're one that’s in sales, but if you ask them, any of your staff, they will tell you. They all hear the stuff. That goes from your maintenance coordinator, to the folks that are answering your phone, to the owner of the company, whoever's doing business development. Just ask, they'll give you feedback.
What we do is problem-solving. Property management is problem-solving. What problem do homeowners have or what are the concerns that they could have? Why are they hiring a property manager? All of the people on your team in some capacity are going to tell you what the most common things are that they hear are an issue from a tenant or from another homeowner, and that's what you need to go to tackle as a team. That’s what you need to make sure you know how to go solve together, but they'll tell you. It truly is just about asking them.
That's something buy-in is huge. The buy-in on the message, the buy-in on how the process should look, the collaboration on there. Even we didn't learn that right away either. We would say, “Okay, I think it should work this way,” and, “Well, you've only been here two months, so you probably don't have an opinion on it yet,” but you know what? They do. It's good to ask for those ideas and feedback on that. They won't give it to you unless you ask for it.
Jason: Yeah, that’s true. Especially on the inside type of personality types. I find a lot of times, they see a lot. They’re almost like the guides for humanity. They're so aware and they see so many things that we miss. Us highly driven, money-motivated people, and entrepreneurs that are crazy, and wild, and taking risks. They see so much.
I meet regularly with my fulfillment team just to ask them, “What challenges are you dealing with? what are you noticing that is coming up as an issue?” A lot of times, we can solve it just by changing how we sell and making sure that we qualify prospects better, that we change what type of clients we’re bringing on because I want them to have a good experience, too. What that does is when you align sales with your fulfillment side, your fulfillment side starts to feel like you care about them.
Jennifer: It’s important what they have to say.
Jason: Some of our biggest mistakes were when I wasn’t listening to the fulfillment side, or wasn't listening to that team, and getting their feedback. They were frustrated because then they feel like they're not supported, “Why are you throwing these stuff at me and these people?”
Jennifer: Exactly. We have to go manage the problems that you guys went and promised but nobody's asking us what we have to deal with on the backend.
Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Our business is our best product.
Jennifer: Yes.
Jason: And when we look at our business as a product, we can see that there's flaws in every one of our businesses. There's always flaws in our product and we can approach it as a product and figure out how do we improve this? How do we make this better? How do we systemize this better? How do we reduce churn? How do we improve the communication? I love the idea of just asking what should we be saying or asking the fulfillment side of the team, like what things are coming up? And what are the big questions that we're having?
Jennifer: It's almost always the simplest things that are overlooked.
Jason: Yeah. Sometimes it's the simplest things that give you the biggest bang for your buck or the biggest increase in revenue. Sometimes it's really simple pivots that need to be made. Sometimes these really simple changes that they can see help improve the business. That's why even with tools and systems that we use like GatherKudos and stuff like that, getting feedback coming in from the business, or feedback from any channel, I think a lot of times people perceive feedback as something negative, but I see feedback as this gateway to everything that you really want.
Jennifer: Absolutely. Even the stuff that comes in that's good, you could still be looking at to do better. A feedback is critical because how do you fix what you don't know? If you're not asking for it, you're not going to get it. All of a sudden, you've got somebody that wants to terminate with you or an employee that doesn't want to be here anymore but nobody ever asked for feedback. Now all of a sudden it's laying in your lap and you're like, “Gosh, I could have fixed that had I known,” but now it's too late.
Jason: The scariest place to be as an entrepreneur is to be completely blindsided with something you didn't see because you are the emperor with no clothes.
Jennifer: That's a great point.
Jason: Nobody should be building a team around them that everybody feels like they have to say yes to.
Jennifer: That's right.
Jason: You are the emperor with no clothes.
Jennifer: That’s right. You want the ideas. You want the feedback for sure. Like it or not, you want it.
Jason: Great. Jennifer, this has been super fun. I really enjoyed having you on the show. It’s always fun to chat with you. How can people connect with you if they're interested connecting with you or how should people get in touch with you if they want to be able to do that?
Jennifer: My email address is just jennifer@parkaveproperties.com or you can just go to Park Avenue’s website parkaveproperties.com and all my info’s on there. My cell number’s on there, my email, and I'm not afraid to get my cell number out so people are welcome to reach out to me. You can go to NARPM. I'm on there, too.
Jason: Awesome. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it. Thanks Jason.
Jason: You bet.
That was super fun, hanging out with Jennifer. For those of you listening, if you enjoy this episode, we’d really appreciate it if you are listening on iTunes, to make sure and subscribe to iTunes podcast and make sure that you leave us some feedback. We really appreciate your real feedback on iTunes. It helps us get awareness and makes it worth it doing these shows. Be sure to join our free community, the DoorGrowClub Facebook group. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com.
If it's been a little while since you've gotten some leads on your website, or you feel like your website maybe is pretty but isn't really doing its job, or maybe it's actually just ugly and not doing its job, make sure to go test it out by going to doorgrow.com/quiz. Take our DoorGrow score quiz and test your website. It’s going to show you how effective your website really is at converting and making money. It’ll give you a letter grade. There’s a few resources for you.
If you're struggling to grow your property management business, you feel like things aren't working like SEO, pay-per-click, content marketing, social media marketing, you're finding all of those cold lead marketing channels less effective, and your number one source of growth still is word-of-mouth, we can make that better. Reach out to DoorGrow and you can check us out at doorgrow.com.
Thanks everybody for tuning in. until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.
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Do you overcomplicate things? Try to automate and systemize everything? Focus too much on drip emails, SEO, or pay-per-click (PPC)? Then, you’re missing the most important element in property management: Taking care of people and property. People don’t buy property management. They buy into a relationship with a property manager.
Today, I am talking with Patty Young of Pearson Smith Realty. She describes how technology has its benefits, but building relationships and being there when someone needs you is the key to success and growth in the property management business.
[03:40] Grow a property management business by talking to people and being available on the phone; avoid complicated conversations by being confident and authentic.
[05:38] Pain and pleasures of solving their problems; property managers close deals by asking more than talking.
[09:07] Understand and categorize personality types; don’t stereotype, but figure out where they are to know how to make them feel better.
[11:05] Why are you reaching out to get property management now? Determine what’s driving their decision making to reach out for help.
[13:18] Create opportunities to start relationships by giving away a value and your free time to help people; find events to attend and places to volunteer.
[15:52] Actively create business by being dedicated and disciplined; schedule time every day for prospecting.
[17:53] Growing too fast isn’t always good; only take on what you can effectively manage and avoid sales lumps by creating consistency.
[21:53] Ratio between level of connection and intimacy in sales situation and close rate is not about how many people show up, but how well you connect with them.
[23:10] “Why don’t you like me? What made you decide to go with them and not me?”; ask for feedback to make your business better and leave the door open for the future.
[32:33] Showcase your expertise and stay on top of what’s happening in the industry; don’t listen to people telling you things that aren’t from a real source.
[39:08] Shift yourself with any prospect or referral partner into being an advice-giver; you’re in a position of authority and trust, which is what creates sales.
[44:34] Be aware of applications that come in where person froze their account due to bad credit history and to bypass your system.
Solicit and close deals by asking more than talking.
Be yourself, be a person, and listen.
You can’t sit back and relax. There’s no relax. You’ve got to keep it going.
Needy in sales is creepy.
Patty Young’s Email Address
DoorGrowClub Facebook Group
Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings.
Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it. You think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win.
I’m your host, Property Management Growth Expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. I have a special guest. We’re hanging out with Patty Young. Patty, welcome to the DoorGrow Show.
Patty: Thank you. I’m happy to be here.
Jason: Patty, you are with a company called Pearson Smith Realty. Maybe you could give everyone a little bit of background on your experience in property management. How’d you get into this?
Patty: Oh, good lord. Many, many years ago, I won’t give out my age, I’ve always liked real estate and just renting property and I was living in Montana at the time. I thought, “You know what? This can’t be that bad. Let’s try this out,” and so I met this fellow who owned a complex and that’s where it all started.
Jason: Were those famous last words?
Patty: No, I guess I’m one of the old people that started this long before we had cell phones and technology, Crowdcast and all those kinds of stuff so it’s really been interesting watching it grow.
Jason: I want people to realize that you have single handedly helped out a lot of doors to some property management businesses. Tell everybody a little bit about your BDM sort of experience.
Patty: I’ve done the franchise route. That’s where I met you many years ago. I did that and grew it and worked with a lot of people in the franchise, which is great, and I was able to do a lot of training. I’m a teacher by trade so I go back to—property management, I think, are protectors to some degree, and so the educating, teaching and trying to explain how to do things is just at the root of what I do. I got to do a lot of training in the franchise world of property management and just kind of kept growing and growing, and it just seemed to make more and more sense.
Jason: While you were working at that franchise, I think you added maybe about 600 or 700 units to the franchise.
Patty: Yeah, in about four years.
Jason: I’m trying to help you brag about yourself a little bit in a relatively short period of time. I think everybody listening would be curious, what are some of the things you’ve done to help grow a property management business just as one of the big challenges?
Patty: One of the big things is talking. You’ve got to be available on the phone and talking to people. All of this technology’s great, having drip emails and all that kind of stuff, but it comes down to the real relationship and being there when they need you. It’s not the SEOs. It’s not all that stuff; it’s about a real person needing real services and being able to help them when they need them. That’s the basis of what we do.
Jason: Absolutely. I think, a lot of times, we overcomplicate things in property management and we think we’ve got to automate everything, we’ve got to systemize everything and we’ve got to create a bunch of drip emails, we’ve got to do SEO, we’ve got to do pay-per-click.
We’ve got all these crazy things that we’re trying to implement and do, and then the challenge is that we’re missing the most important element, which, in property management, if you are a protector, you are taking care of people, and taking care of property. People don’t buy property management; they really buy into a relationship with a property manager, and I think we lose sight of that.
Sometimes,we think, “I’m trying to sell my business to them,” and, really, they’re not trying to buy your business. What they’re trying to buy into is whether or not they can trust you to take care of their property.
Patty: Exactly. I think people are not confident enough sometimes and they think, “I’ve got to talk, and talk, and talk,” and you never stop breathing and then you just become an elevator speech and everybody’s saying, “You’ve just got to be yourself. You’ve got to be confident, you’ve got to feel good about what you do in the service that you provide, and the rest comes.” It is crazy how complicated people make it.
Jason: It would probably be true, then, to say as a property manager if you’re working on closing a deal or soliciting somebody to hopefully get their business that you need to be asking a lot of questions.
Patty: You need to be asking more than you’re talking. You need them to talk. You need them to tell you where they’re scared, where you can come in to help them and where you can support their needs. That’s what they want to hear even though that’s not what you’re hearing them ask.
Jason: What are your favorite questions to ask, then, during that sort of sales process or maybe even in initial conversations to really identify where they’re at and whether or not you can close that deal?
Patty: I want to get a report going as quickly as possible. “So, tell me about yourself.” That’s kind of like the first thing, and they will start talking, and they’ll tell you, “Oh, I just had it and got it today. I’m moving to California. I’m coming up by you,” and he’s got to move, and he’s got this house, and there’s no way he could sell it because he just bought it, and you just let them go.
They will start answering all the questions themselves when you ask them, “Just tell me about yourself. What time would I mail? How can we support your needs? What is it you need?” and let them ramble out. Once they ramble it out, in your head, you’re already knowing how to answer those questions that they—the holes in your life that you can plug.
Jason: Yeah. They’ll start to help you identify some of their pain points. They’ll start maybe even giving you some clue as to what they want. Really, the two things you need to know to close a deal are, “What problems do they have that you can solve? What’s their pain?” and, “What do they want?” and that’s the outcome of solving that problem, the pain and the pleasures. If you have those two pieces, those elements, that can be really effective.
I think, a lot of times during the sales process, if we get too caught up on our own voice and what we want to say to them, we miss really digging into that pain because the stronger we can really identify that pain and really connect with it, and the stronger we can really connect with what they want and really get clear on that, and help them be really hyper aware of those things, the easier it is to close a deal, but if we go, “Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,” and gloss over it and move on to what we feel like we need to tell them or we want to say as a salesperson, then what ends up happening is they start tuning out, they are thinking you’re just a commodity like, “You’re all the same. Every property manager’s the same,” and they’re probably heard that from most of the people they’ve talked to.
“Well, we do this, and here’s our fees, and here’s how we do it, and we’re going to do this. We’ll come out to your property,” and they’re thinking, “Well, what about my problem?”
Patty: Right, and you just sound like a recording like everybody else. No. The one I had today, he was asking about going to California. I said, “Well, great. What’s prompting you to move? Is it a job? Are you from there? Tell me about your trip to California and this new chapter in your life,” and then, all of a sudden, it all just comes tumbling out. In allowing them to talk and then, at the right time, knowing when to—and you’re not going to know until you know.
Now, every human, luckily, is different and all that good stuff, and some people are your very Excel Spreadsheet-of-the-World, some are the technical people, some are more like, “Where’s the pictures?” or whatever, but you don’t even know what they are so stop trying to sell that until you even identify what it is.
Jason: Do you feel like, over time, you’ve become really astute at understanding different personality types? Because what it sounds like what you’re saying is you’re taking some time to get to know them to build rapport, but it sounds like you’ve kind of categorized people a little bit in your head as certain personality types.
Patty: I did.
Jason: Give us some examples of some different personality types that you maybe come across that are different like this gentleman from California. How would you categorize him as different than somebody else that you might talk to?
Patty: He was right to business. He doesn’t want any—he’s no fancy-pants. He just wants to know, “All right, am I going to make my numbers? Is this going to work? What is my involvement in this?” He was just so cute so when he talked about himself and told me about what his needs were, what he did for a living, and all these kinds of things. Every human is different.
Now, I don’t mean to stereotype, but you have to figure out who your audience is. “Well then, great. Now I know what’s going to make this guy happy. We have this portal. Everything is there for you. You have electronic filing cabinets. You’re going to have monthly statements,” and then you go down what they’re really after that’s going to make them happy.
If it’s a person who is more about, “Oh my gosh, I’m so worried my house is going to be torn up,” or if their baby, and they just built, and they picked out every cabinet and all that kind of stuff, it’s a different, softer approach because now you’re dealing with the emotional side of the client. So you have to figure out where they are because you don’t know how to make them feel better unless you know whether it’s making them anxious.
Jason: Got it. Some people might be a little more on the analytical side, they might be a little more concerned about the numbers, you might have some people that are a bit more on the emotional side, maybe the property is connected to a family member or there’s some history there emotionally or there’s some sort of pain that they’re in, emotionally, that is connected to this.
One of my favorite follow-up questions during the sales process after I initially connect with people and get familiar with their situation is to ask, “Why now,” which is a great question just to identify, like, “So you’ve had this property for a while. Why now? Why is this an issue now?” and then I get a whole different set of answers a lot of times.
Why now? Why now are you reaching out to get property management? You’ve obviously had this for a little while and maybe you’ve been self-managing. What’s sort of driving this? Then you’re going to get even more insight they’re going to share with you, and that’s where, usually, I get the real pain answers, when I ask that question.
I’ve heard anything from, “I have cancer,” or, “My family member just died.” To not know that information and to just keep plowing forward in the sales process almost seems insensitive sometimes when you get to the bedrock of what’s driving their decision-making to reach out for help right now.
Patty: Absolutely. Now, this guy, obviously, he’s very excited. He’s got a position in California so he’s changing coasts. He’s not happy about having to pick up and move his family, but it’s okay because he’s leaving winter behind. He’s happy to get rid of our cold. We’ve got more snow coming. That makes him very happy so that piece of it is good for him but then with that move comes the hardship because his brother is here. You have that to go with. "Maybe I can just have my brother do it,” and that comes into play as your why.
You’ve just got to be yourself, be a person and listen. If you’re just a person listening versus this façade as some person who’s just doing their job, walking in, you’ve got to be confident and you’ve got to care.
Jason: All right. If you’re confident and you care, what are some other ways that you are creating opportunities to start these relationships? Because I think a lot of people are like, and I hear this all the time, “If I just get people on the phone, I can close them. I close everybody,” which usually means they’re closing all the word-of-mouth leads, which are easy to close, but the real concern they have is, “How do I get more conversations?” How are you creating opportunities to have these relationships instead of just waiting for them to come to you?
Patty: You’ve got to put yourself in positions with other people so I do that through teaching. I’m giving away a value to a lot of different offices. I’m giving away a value. I do a lot of different speaking engagements for free, no charges, because, in doing so, then, one, they look at you as an expert, two, you’re willing to give your free time and to help people and talk with them, and you’ve just got to find places in your communities to rise above and be there to volunteer.
I look at it as I’m a farmer. It took me a long time to grow up and figure out, “Where am I going to be? I’m a farmer.” I like to grow businesses. I like to grow relationships. What’s a farmer’s duty? There’s different kinds of farms. You can farm neighborhoods. You can farm HOAs. You can manage those if you want to. I personally like HOAs, and a lot of people do manage those. Are you doing more of a commercial management or residential? There’s different audiences. Are you looking for investors?
You have to think somewhat here, and maybe you want to level up, but you’re going to have to set a plan to decide where you’re going to farm and where you’re going to get these people from. Then, once you do it, one of the duties or tasks, if you will, of farmer is you get animals now. Okay, property managers, what kind of animals do you want? Are you raising these investors? Are you doing accidental landlords? Are you looking for trustees?
I’m one of them. One of our animal’s realtors. Some of those are big brokers, but I do go to a lot of real estate events and I do a lot of talking and a lot of chatting. You can do NARPM events. You can do realtor associations. There’s just so many different places that things are happening. You’ve just got to get out of the chair and be out there where the people are because they’re not going to find you in your seat while you’re still there talking on the phone.
Jason: Right. I think one of the big challenges is that there’s so much opportunity in the property management industry. There’s such a high percentage in the US that are not using property management that are self-managing and yet you have so many property managers that are just looking over their shoulders back and forth and everybody else going, “What are you doing to wait for leads and wait for business to come to you?” They’re hoping that they can take money and just hand it to a marketer and suddenly people will just walk in the door and say, “Take my money.”
You’re out there actively doing what a coach likes to do. You’re actively out there creating business instead of waiting for it to come to you.
Patty: Eventually, it comes to you. Once you get enough to go in and you become—yes, you can get that going. Every day, you should have prospecting time, whatever that is. If you’re going to spend two hours every day or whatever it is you want to grow to or do, that’s your call. But you’ve got to have that dedication and that discipline to do it because if you don’t, then time just slips on by.
Jason: Let’s create a little bit of perspective here. It’s taken you a little while, but when you start out in a new market, which you’ve done several times, and you decide you’re a farmer using this analogy and it’s time to farm, and you’re looking at the field and you feel like you need to get things started, how much time do you start spending in a week on prospecting or maybe in a day?
Patty: Today’s world is so different from what it used to be. You’ve got meet-ups, you’ve got Crowdcast, you’ve got podcasts, and you’ve got all this stuff out there. So you’ve got to quiet the noise down, and you have to start somewhere. Don’t be afraid to start because that’s the other problem. Maybe you can just say, “I’m going to pick this neighborhood.” Okay, great. “In this neighborhood, I could do a little research and see that there are 5000 thousands in this development so how do I reach out to these people?”
Okay, maybe you go and you meet the HOA people. They’ve got different events that happen so you’ll want to be part of all that. There’s usually some businesses nearby that you can be part of. Let’s say you’re going to take this area, you want to at least be putting in, at a minimum, at least three hours a day. If you’re going to do eight hours, let’s just say, I think there should be at least three hours of that as prospecting.
Jason: So, probably about 15 hours in a week?
Patty: Depending on how much you want to grow and how fast you want it to go because sometimes growing too fast isn’t good.
Jason: Right, so then you’d be able to handle it, and manage it successfully, and deal with each new property to bring you on each—bringing on board and effectively.
Patty: If you’re going to promise something, better do it.
Jason: Right. Yeah. They can start farming neighborhoods. They can start reaching out. They can start hitting up some groups in the area. How much time are you spending now that you’ve kind of primed this engine in the business that you’re in now towards prospecting?
Patty: Probably at least the same, if not more. There’s very little internet need-leading or any of that going on. At this point, I’m curating it. I’ve got people coming in and I talk to some, need to nurture some and all that kind of stuff, but you can never stop this. You can’t ever get happy like, “Oh well, I’ve got these three coming so I’m all good,” like a realtor will. “Oh, I’ve got these few commissions. They’re going to close them and I’m all good.”
You can’t sit back and relax. There’s no relax. You’ve got to keep it going and, sometimes, it’s evening weekends or whatever it is and, of course, they’re seasonal in this, too, so you have to be watching that, but you can never stop prospecting because even if you’re happy and maybe your goal is a hundred doors and you’re happy with a hundred, they’re not going to stay with you. That rollercoaster’s going to start moving. Somebody’s going to sell. Somebody’s back. It’s constantly changing.
Jason: Right. The sales has to outpace the churn, and the doors getting sold, and so on. I think you bring up a good point in that if you don’t have consistent prospecting and consistent lead-gen systems in place where you’re doing it consistently, then what ends up happening is, usually, it creates a sales slump, and those last for maybe a month to 90 days, typically, and they’re difficult to crawl out because you’ll build up the pipeline and then you have deals closing.
If you get comfortable and turn that off, what you’re doing is you’re creating a problem a month or two months later in which you’re going to have a sales slump. You’re going to have less cash flow coming in and you’re going to have less new clients coming in, and it’s going to get quiet and then you’re going to hi ho Silver. You see salespeople, "Hi ho Silver," they jump on the horse and they’re like, “I’m going to ride this hard and I’m going to figure this out and do sales, sales, sales,” and then they come across almost needy.
Needy in sales is creepy and then the problem is it starts to get carry for them.
Patty: They’re panicking.
Jason: They start to panic, and so they can avoid these sales lumps by creating some consistency even if they’re only able to dedicate a small number of hours a day or even just an hour a day, as long as they have some consistency throughout the week that they don’t just shut it off for half the month or shut it off for a month, they should consistently be able to generate leads. They have no control when those deals will really close. If they aren’t doing it, those deals won’t be closing.
Patty: Yeah, they’re zero. In the classes that I teach and things, I might get one or two leads that day and then I don’t know what’s coming. You cast out the net and you see what it brings in. I didn’t want to do it. It was early December. It was a bad time of the year, but they really wanted me to come do this and I was like, “You know what? Absolutely. I’ll be there.”
Now, I didn’t think there was going to be much of a turnout but you never know, and it turned out there were four people. I was like, “Whoa, that’s pretty cool. That’s all right. I could do four. It doesn’t matter.” Out of the four, I got three so who would’ve known? It was awesome. Even the lady that was doing the events, turns out she was convinced and she decided to give me her house to manage. You never know what’s out there and if you’re not out there, you’re not getting anything.
Jason: I think there’s a direct ratio between the level of connection and the level of intimacy in a sales situation and the close rate, and so it’s not just about numbers. It’s not about how many people show up but, like you said, it’s about how well you’re able to connect with those people. The smaller the group, the more intimate that communication can turn, like if you’re working with one-on-one with somebody, I’m sure it’s a very intimate conversation. It’s personally about them and their pain that we talked about in the beginning.
You get three or four people, it gets a little bit more broad. If you’re doing it through an entire room, there’s some authority there and that’s nice, but you’re going to then have to do follow-up to create that intimacy and create that connection afterwards, which is really important in those situations, but you then are getting to do one of the many sales and establish yourself as an authority in front of them.
Patty: And you didn’t cancel. They never expected that you’re going to cancel and bail. That would stop you from getting the next gig. These are all gigs. We’re constantly going after these gigs. You cancel one and, “Yeah, do I really want to get out there? It’s 7:00 at night. Could I maybe do more work on the site? Yeah.”
No, being in front of people makes a huge difference. I’ll tell you: Some people don’t think about it, but if you’ve gone on a meeting, you’ve tried and you’ve lost, you need to ask why. At this point, “Oh, that’s fine. I have another company.”
“Okay, you tell me so I can make better my business. What is it that made you decide to go with them and not with me?” It’s a hard question to ask, like, “Why don’t you like me?” but you have to ask the question. “What was it? Was it my perfume?” But you have to ask because if they say, “Well, the other guy seemed more confident.”
Now, you know what to work on. You need that constructive criticism, but most people don’t want to ask because they just want to feel, “Ah, they didn’t fit anyway. I don’t want them.” They may or may not but if you don’t ask, you never know and then you can’t improve.
Jason: Feeling safe asking for feedback is a huge superpower. I feel like, for business owners, not being willing to palate or not being able to palate, digest, absorb or take in feedback is a dangerous thing. I honestly feel like I’ve built my company on thousands of failures, and so being able to get feedback, make mistakes and to keep moving forward as a business owner is huge. If you don’t get a deal, there’s some awesome feedback waiting for you that you could potentially gain from them so I love that idea.
Sometimes, it’s just simple as just sending an email follow-up. “Hey, honestly, could you tell me why you went with this other company? You won’t hurt my feelings. It would help us. If there’s anything that you can do to help us improve, it’d be great,” and people love sharing advice.
Patty: If you put it that way, “Look, I just need a favor. I know that you’re going X, Y and Z, but I would just so be appreciative if you can give me some constructive criticism. What exactly was it? Was I 10 minutes late and you didn’t like that? Don’t you like our pricing? What is it? What swooned you? What was it?” and maybe it was just, “I have no idea. I just like this guy better.” Okay, that’s fine. I’m okay with that, but if I don’t ask, I never know, and if you don’t know, you don’t improve. It’s kind of like those, “Listen to your sales pitch,” and nobody likes to hear their own voice and no one wants to hear why they’re not picking you but you need to.
Jason: Yeah. If we’re really honest with ourselves, we really do want to make money and we really do want to know. We really do want to know why they didn’t go with us, and so being willing to be vulnerable and ask for that feedback can be really powerful.
Surprisingly, when you do that, it gives you ideas. It’s like, here’s how to win more business, and sometimes it’s the things that they use. The deciding factors are so simple and they’re so simple that you’re kicking yourself. You’re like, “Really? That’s it?” I mention that on every call. It’s really simple.
Patty: You're not going to know if you don’t ask. You've got to ask.
Jason: One of my favorite tactics, though, if I don’t get a deal, is to lead the door open for the future. “Why’d you go to somebody else?” Great, I really appreciate that feedback. “If things don’t go well with this company, you have any trouble or this happens to this, we will still be here, ready and willing to take your business and help you in the future.”
I love just leaving that door open. I don’t want them to feel like, “Well, they shut the door on me and they’re dead to me.” I’m creating that anchor for the possible future because I’ve had clients go with another company, they have happened exactly what I had explained to them would happen, and they come back and like, “You were right and I would love to work with you guys.”
Patty: Because they’re not ready to hear it yet. They haven’t reached the point what you’re telling them. They can’t absorb what you’re telling them yet.
Jason: They don’t believe it, they haven’t experienced, and they have to go experience that. They have to go try out the cheapest property manager, the cheapest website company or the cheapest whatever, marketing firm.
They’ve got to try out somebody and test out stuff because they believe they know better and then, as soon as they realize that they don’t know better, they didn’t know something, something blindsides them or they’ve run into a snag that you had kind of mentioned or foretold, you’ve created this powerful anchor that they’re going to remember you the moment that happens.
Patty: Yeah, and it’s great because—you have to leave it open to the point that they’re not going to—a lot of people don’t want to ask the question why they didn’t get it. It’s the same thing; they have to be comfortable to come back to you because you’re not going to say, “I told you so,” so it has to be very open. I always say, “Look, I’m a sounding board. If anything happens in the future,” and sometimes, they’re like, “I’m going do it myself.”
You have those people in the world and you have those that go to the bare minimum bones. “I’m glad they can help you for that price. It’s not something that we can do, but if something should change down the road, if you have questions or something odd comes up, you’ve got my number,” and I sit there with them. “Can you put me in your phone please?” and I make them do it while we’re there.
Otherwise, they’re not going to put you in there. You’re gone. They’re going to forget so I say, “Here, put me in there,” and I watch them put my number in there if it’s not already, and if it is already, I just say, “Just put, next to my name, ‘Call her.’” He’s like, “What?” I say, “Well, down the road if something comes up, you can say, ‘Oh, yeah. It says, ‘Call her.’ You can search and find me.” They’re like, “Okay?” but it works because they do.
It’s kind of like when you have a little child that they’re just not mature enough to understand maybe how to tie a shoe or whatever. They just mentally can’t do it. It just can’t happen. These people are not going to be able to get where you’re at yet, and you’ve got to understand that and it’s okay. They will mature eventually and we’ll see what happens, but making them put you in their phone is like, “Oh, I’ve got to be in that phone because they’ll never find me if I’m not on their phone.”
Jason: Such a little hack and I can see how effective that would be. Yeah. As soon as you have this problem, you’re creating this anchor. “As soon as you have this problem, if you run into this or if you run into any issues, I am available for feedback. You don’t even have to remember my name. Just put, ‘Call her,’ in here and, remember, call her and just plug it in.”
You walk them through, making sure they get it into their phone. They’re going to do it. They want to finish the conversation, they want to be done and you’re hanging out with them or you’re talking with them. “Enter this into your phone.”
Another tactic is you could say, “What’s your phone number? I’m going to text-message you right now and then you have my phone number. Enter this number in,” or however you want to do it and just make sure you get them into the phone.
Patty: That’s the new Rolodex.
Jason: Then, send them a follow-up email after that and say, “Just in case you ever lose my contact details, here is my information. Here is my direct number. Reach me if you run in any problems.” I love the idea you mentioned of being a sounding board. I think a lot of property managers are so focused on getting the deal, but what they really need to start with is being a resource.
Patty: Yes. Yeah. I always tell them, “You’ve got my experience at your disposal.” You’re doing your research. That’s great. We all have availabilities on our computer to do some research. “Great. I'm planning to get a roof, I’m going to do some research,” whatever it is, and that’s all great. Hey, absolutely. I'll do the same thing. I said, look, if you hear something from one of the other companies that you’re shopping or something doesn’t make sense because you’ve got to peel back some onions to get down to—how you’re really comparing here, apples to apples, call me and I’ll answer whatever it is. There’s no cost to you. You’re just going to call me and ask me a question.
Usually, they do. Maybe you’ve met with them or they’re not going to be moving in for six months or it could be one of these long nurtures or whatever, they’ll come up to something. They’ll go, “Hey, someone told me this but you told me that, by the law, it was this so what really is it?” I’ll say, “Oh, absolutely. Let me send you the statutes,” and, all of a sudden, you’re on top again because they’re constantly doing the comparing. Guess what: I’ve got the law that states this is what it is. Now, Patty wins. I like it when Patty wins.
Jason: I’m sure, in some of those situations, you’ve gotten the deals just because you actually showcased your expertise. They gave you that chance.
Patty: Yeah, it’s amazing. Even in today’s day and age, how much out there is just make-believe and fluff. “Well, our agent said this was it,” or, “This one said this is it,” and, all of a sudden, that becomes a new law and it’s not, and there’s a lot of it out there. Unfortunately, people get away with doing stuff and they keep doing it, but they don’t invest in themselves enough to continue the training, go to classes, just become smarter or at least be updated or something.
Those agents, even when I’m working with them, I can look them up at our MLS system and I look and see when something starts–you get that gut feeling. I’ll look them up and I’ll just say, “Oh, okay. Well, they haven’t done a rental deal since 1997 so now I know how better how to work with this agent to make this deal get through.” Knowing what you’re dealing with helps.
Jason: How much time do you invest in making sure that you’re on top of the industry, that you know what the latest laws are, that you know what’s up with property management in your state? How much time are you investing on a regular basis towards this? How do you stay connected to all of that?
Patty: I’m probably obsessed with it more than most because if we’re here—my job is to protect your property and protect you. How am I going to be done if I don’t know what all this stuff is? Actually, I was on the phone yesterday with one of the attorneys and a simple little thing, as an example—every state’s different, but the pet addendum that’s used in our state does not have a sentence it’s needed to be there that says, like a tenant signing off, “Pet does not have a bite history.” One sentence, that’s all we need. That’s it.
To give the insurance companies all of our emotional support, our services and all of this, they’ve gone away from that dirty dozen. They’re not barring any animals anymore. They’re going by bite history. Why doesn’t our farm have that? I’m like, “Hello? Boo.”
I do volunteer with those associations. I volunteer on education committees, on the fair housing task forces, the forms committees, all that kind of stuff, so that knowing where we need just makes sure it’s pushed through, one. Two, finding out what they’re up to and what we’re going to get is another and fighting for what we need.
If you’re staying in two and you’re involved in these organizations, it’s all volunteer so you don’t have to pay for this kind of stuff, but you volunteer in NARPM and other ones. I’m heavily involved in NARPM and trying to make sure all that’s going through, but you’ve just got to find out what’s around you, volunteer and get into it.
I guess I’ve never really sat down how many hours it takes; some of it just comes up and you know there’s a need for it so you know the right people to call and say, “How do I do it?”
Even if you don’t know, maybe you’re brand new, and just moved here, “Okay, who’s the wielder association? Who’s the property management companies? Where’s the NARPM groups? Where’s this? Where is that?” Some of it is research. You’ve got to find out how do you know and who do you know to call. You find out and then say, “How do I volunteer to get to the meetings?” and then, pretty soon, it just builds its way from there.
Jason: I’ve heard you mention a few things. You’ve mentioned you talk to an attorney so you’ve got some attorneys that you’re connected to that you leverage as resource, you mentioned NARPM which you use as a resource, you mentioned real estate or realtor association and being connected to those, and then you also mentioned doing your own research.
Overall, you said you’re obsessed, and I think it’s important that if there’s one thing you should be obsessed about as a property manager, it’s being able to effectively solve people’s problems. That’s this, is to solve some of these problems. If you are obsessed with doing it correctly and solving people’s problems, that gives you a lot of confidence going into a sales conversation, I would imagine.
Patty: Yeah, and there’s so many chat groups, Facebook groups and all this, but the other thing, too, is make sure that you’re not listening to the players of the world. If I’m listening to people telling me things that aren’t the real source, then I’m learning it wrong, which is the only reason I teach and I have my own real estate school is I teach it right, but if you’re listening to the wrong sources, then now what?
I had a call today from a fellow. He used to own a property management company, I’ve known him for years, and he was a meeting. I won’t say which company he’s with now. Anyway, he’s just doing real estate; he’s not doing management. He goes, “Hey, I thought, years ago, when we did this and this, we weren’t allowed to give out the credit reports,” and I said, “It depends on your contract.” He said, “Yeah, but they’re saying dah, dah, dah, ” and I said, “Who are you listening to? Wait a minute. Why am I on a speaker there? When’s the next meeting?” and that was my question to him.
He goes, “Oh, absolutely. Okay, can you do April?” I said, “Give me a date, Baby.” When I find out and it doesn’t matter whose name’s on the doors. When I find out that there’s stuff happening that I know is incorrect, based upon me being around the right sources and the smart people, then I want to go fix it before they all start it because when we’re running these properties, we’re very real estate-driven. Everything is done through the MLS here, so I’m going to bump into these agents. I don’t want them doing it wrong because it makes my job harder plus I want their referrals.
Jason: As soon as you identify that somebody is inaccurate in maybe landlord-tenant law or in process, you leverage that as an opportunity to go and speak to them, educate and to teach, which then feeds you referrals.
Patty: I attack it. I’ll bring the cookies, I’ll bring the donuts, and whatever. Let’s go. Give me a date now.
Jason: They have a question and you’re like, “You have an audience? I’ll come answer that question and I’ll give even more value.” I love it.
Patty: It’s funny because it all just kind of evolved. When I was doing the franchise pieces, I met a lot of great people all over the world, literally all over the world. It was special over every country and it just became—they would have something come up. “Patty, can you give me a hand? Can you help me?” “Yeah, what’s going on?” and, because we were the same franchise, it was easy for me to answer a lot of questions so I kind of became the 911 or the 411 when they would ask questions.
It was awesome and then I started training with them, too, and I enjoyed it. I enjoy fixing people’s problems. I’m one of nine children so I’ve got on-the-job training, you see. My dad’s an engineer and my mom’s incredible so you learn this stuff. There’s a lot of realtors here that have called me on different things and when they call or when you work with a realtor on something, if you are dealing with them, ask them.
You’ve got to ask, “What do you guys do for training?” and they’re going to come back and say, “Well, what do you mean? All we do is a rental deal.” “I know, but you do guys property management in your office?" Are you asking these questions because there's another opportunity or a source. Most people get the deal done, they move on and don’t even think twice about it, but you can get feedback.
Jason: Right. You’ll ask them, “How are you handling leases? How are you handling property management-related things?” and as soon as you notice there’s problems, you use that as leverage to say, “Hey, maybe I should come teach a class for you guys. Let me come share some ideas with you.”
Patty: All I need is a little crack in the door.
Jason: “Got it,” and then you’re in. It’s a magical and powerful thing if you can immediately shift yourself with any prospect or referral partner into the category of an advice-giver. As soon as you’re there, you are in a position of authority and a position of trust, and that is what creates sales.
Sales happens at the speed of trust, and so you can skip right to the top simply by shifting yourself and positioning yourself into a position of being able to give them advice, and that instantly establishes you as a trustworthy person in their mind that you can now give them information and value. They’re receiving information and value and once you give them value, then it’s a lot easier for you to get value from them.
Patty: Yeah, and then you're going to find out too—let’s say you go to their April meeting. Okay, you’ve done their meeting. “So, can I come back next April? When’s your next meeting?” That’s usually the one you can’t stop. It’s follow-up. Our laws in Virginia change every six months. I need to come here every six months so that I can keep you guys abreast of it, right? Because the brokers don’t want to do it. You have to make sure you’re cycling there every six months.
Jason: Don’t just give up. After you do it once and you’re like, “Wow, I did this. Hurray!” you might be leaving a lot on the table if you don’t just simply ask, “Can I do this again? The laws are always changing. Things are always coming out. I’d love to come right back, and I’ll put you in my calendar and follow up with you, and let’s just do it again,” and they’d probably say, “Yeah. Well, this has been great. It’s been a good experience. We would love to.”
If you don’t ask, then, odds are, they’re going to be focused on their own problems, on their own business, and their own things, and they’re not just going to go, “Maybe we should invite Patty back. I wonder what’s going on in property management law lately.”
Patty: They’re not going to call you unless there’s a problem. It’s like when you go to a dentist. Before you leave, they have you booked. “How are you doing in June?” or whatever. They already had you booked for the next one. Before you leave that office or whatever groupie you’re doing, you should be already booking your next event. It’s a new gig. Get that new gig set up.
Jason: Cool. Really smart. What do you do at these events to make sure that you’re able to follow up and connect with people after the event?
Patty: Some events, I do registrations so that I have all the information. Some don’t so if they don’t, I need to sign up. I always give a raffle giveaway put their cards in. If they don’t have cards, I have index cards that they put all their information on it. If it doesn’t have an email and a phone number, it doesn’t count; they can’t be pulled.
If they want the freebie, they’re going to have put them both in, and I want them both. I want their cell phone and I need an email. Otherwise, whatever. I can find the rest out in the internet as to where you live and all that kind of stuff, but it depends on the audience. If I’m with realtors, they love their toys. They’re going to hand me their cards. I do a lot of stuff, too, that’s landlord lessons so I do a series with landlords. I have all kinds of different people come join me, different partners I’ll partner with.
If it’s just a landlord, they may not have a business card. Maybe they don’t want to give me their work stuff so I always have index cards and I have them already ready to go. Phone, email, name—boom. It’s all you need. Otherwise, you can’t win this $100-giftcard and everybody wants a $100-giftcard so in they go.
Jason: Cool. You’re gamifying the whole situation a little bit here just to make it joyful.
Patty: Yeah. People like to want to do stuff and they want to be told. They do, too. Kids will tell you they don’t but they do. They really do and adults do, too. Did you go to the DMV? I know we don’t have to go anymore, but when you did go, I always feel like a DMV person when I'm doing the W-9 form, is they would highlight that one spot. They highlight where your name is, your phone number and all that kind of stuff.
It’s great so it’s like, “Okay, here’s what I need,” and they just look at you like, “Oh, she said so,” and they fill it out and they give it to you, just tell them to do it.
Jason: Yeah, they do it. “This is what I need from you. Here you go,” and they just do it. They’re like, “Okay.” You’re like the Pied Piper.
Patty: Well, one of the biggest compliments I ever got and I didn’t even know is my son has become a realtor, which is crazy and I told him that. I didn’t know he was listening. You’re in the car, you’re his mom, and you hear all this stuff, and you figure they’re not listening. They do listen. Anyway, I used to tell him—I’d be talking to someone and when I had papers that need filled out that I’m actually meeting in person, I highlight everything; it’s all ready to go.
He’s eating his pie. “Here’s your pen. Follow the yellow brick road and everything is all done.” I heard him repeat that and I was like, “Oh my, gosh.” There we go. That’s one of the biggest compliments you can get, is when somebody repeats what you said. He goes, “Well, I told him to follow the yellow brick road.” That went on his first listing with him and that’s what he told the client. I’m like, “Yes.”
Jason: Yellow highlighter. Follow the yellow brick road.
Patty: Yes, that’s all I need, is these signatures.
Jason: Patty, I think you’ve shared several cool little hacks and ideas. It’s really clever and I think all this is very helpful for property managers who are seeking to cultivate relationships which eventually lead to contracts. Are there any other recommendations or any other challenges you’re noticing among property management business owners that are struggling to grow that they should be paying attention to?
Patty: One hack that I’ve seen that’s not good that is out there that they might—I don’t know if they’re aware of it or it’s happening near them, but it’s not for growth; it’s more for protection. A lot of people have identity theft. It’s all over. What a lot of people have done to save it instead of paying money to some of these companies is they’ve just frozen their credit. They’re not buying anything. They just freeze it.
Therefore, they didn’t protect it, but what’s happening is we have people who are putting applications in our—there’s 5 million different software out there, and most people doing applications online actually agree with that. The application comes in and what’s happening is the people with really bad credit are freezing their credit. So when we pull the application and we run it, it comes up as, ‘N/A.’ We don’t see that they have 14 late payments. We don’t see that they have two charge options, three bankruptcies and all that kind of stuff because it comes up as, ‘N/A.’
People assume, “Oh, well, based on the birth date, they just don’t have enough credit established so it’s coming up as, ‘N/A.’” Not true. They’re freezing it so they’re bypassing our system, which is pretty smart when you think about it. It’s pretty slick. What I’ve done and everybody can do is just add one sentence to your application that says, “Have you frozen your credit? If so, please unfreeze before applying,” because if they’d lied on the application, now that affects them getting released, but it’s a pretty slick little smart way.
I’ll give them credit for that because, by freezing it—and I can’t tell you how many people have gotten by with it because most owners—so, if I’m telling you, Jason, “Well, they don’t have any credit based on the score and they really don’t have any debt. They just haven’t established yet according to the agent but they’re making this much money and they’re going to come in and take care of your house, and the property manager’s telling the truth.”
You might buy that, but if I tell you their credit score’s a 420 and they have 18 collections and all this kind of stuff, you’re going to say, “No way,” so I give them an A for effort. However, they’re not getting past us.
Jason: Yeah, if they have a credit score of 420, what then…
Patty: You’re probably going to say no. If I tell you, “N/A. They just don’t have any,” versus a 420, you might be willing to accept the, ‘N/A,’ but you’re not going to take the 420 so it’s a pretty slick little racket they’ve got going on, but the way […] one question in the application and then now you’ve got it.
Then, the other part, too, is there are some people that we have a lot of military government being here near DC so we have a lot of people moving and they maybe forgot they’ve frozen it, and I don’t want to run the credit and then it comes up nothing then we have to go back again.
By asking that question, if it’s a legitimate person that has done so, they can see on there, “Oh, wow. We froze it. We’ve got to fix it,” and they’ll fix it before they apply so it’s a good thing, but it’s been used in a little interesting hack, if you will.
Jason: Got it. All right. Patty, all this has been super informative. I agree with you that property management is about relationships. People need to be getting out there, creating relationships, connecting with people. There’s so much blue ocean and opportunity available that’s just waiting for leads to come to you. It’s probably not a great growth strategy in general, and I know you’ve had phenomenal growth in all the businesses that you’ve been affiliated with because of these methods so I think everybody should pay attention and listen to Patty.
If anybody has some questions for you or wants to reach out to you, how can they get ahold of you?
Patty: My simplest email is realtorp@gmail.com or you can reach me on my cell number. I’m on Facebook. I’m on your staff, of course. I actually was thinking, Jason.When I was back with OpenPotion, did you live in Idaho or somewhere at the time? Is that where it was?
Jason: Yeah, I’m in Southern California now.
Patty: I know, but was it in Idaho? I want to try to remember.
Jason: Yeah.
Patty: Gosh, what year was that?
Jason: I don’t know. A while ago.
Patty: A long time ago. It’s so cool to be old enough, to have a relationship with someone like you back then, and you had the dreams and the ideas to do this, and then to actually see you do it is awesome.
Jason: I appreciate that. I think we’ve probably known each other for about a decade, realistically.
Patty: Gosh, we probably have.
Jason: Yeah, because I helped my brother, Bryant, with his business originally, probably back in 2008.
Patty: I was going to say ’07 or ’08, probably.
Jason: And then you were one of the early clients, I think, that we’ve worked with.
Patty: And you often have.
Jason: Exactly.
Patty: Back then, even. See? When you were just starting out on this. It was awesome.
Jason: We’ve learned a lot since then. A lot.
Patty: Yeah, it’s crazy.
Jason: Like I said, a thousand or more mistakes.
Patty: No, it’s all good. We don’t fall; we don’t get up so I’m glad it happened.
Jason: Yeah, always learning. Patty, it’s been great having you on the show. I appreciate you coming out and I wish you continued awesome growth and success.
Patty: And yourself as well. Thank you.
Jason: All right. Thanks, Patty. Okay. Cool. Everybody watching this show, please be sure to check out the community that we have going on online, which Patty had sort of mentioned on Facebook, which is our DoorGrow Club. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com, and if you are a property management business owner and you are looking to add doors and grow your business, that is an awesome community of people that are helpful.
Then, if you want some help figuring out how to grow your business, you want to align and clean up your sales pipeline, clean up the major leaks that are limiting organic growth and preventing you from being able to really capitalize on a lot of the things that Patty was discussing, then reach out to us at DoorGrow. This is what we focus on. It’s helping you align your business so that you can create new revenue, create more growth, and maximize each door that you have.
You can get to us just by going to doorgrow.com. I’m Jason Hull of the DoorGrow Show and until next time. To our mutual growth, everybody. Goodbye.
How should property managers deal with mold that affects air quality? How can they create a healthier indoor environment for their tenants? The key is to have a “green” professional perform tests and offer solutions.
Today, I am talking with James Armendariz of Green Home Solutions TrueEnviro. He shares a new perspective on how to handle molds and odors, as well as add healthy bacteria into the environment.
[03:23] Property managers usually try to get rid of mold by spraying a porous surface with bleach, which is 99% water that continues to feed the mold.
[04:30] Property managers often have to deal with odors left behind by tenants, including cannabis, cigarette, cat urine, and other smells.
[05:55] Painting cigarette-stained walls or using bleach only masks or covers up smells temporarily; TrueEnviro eliminates odor molecules from the environment for good.
[06:42] TrueEnviro removes allergens, pathogens, mold, odor, and bacteria to maintain and establish a healthy, indoor environment that smells like fresh air.
[07:33] Eat Dirt: Shift balance toward beneficial bacteria vs. bad bacteria.
[08:37] Good or bad, bacteria seeks a food source; TrueEnviro’s probiotic service eliminates food source that bacteria thrives on.
[10:09] Tenant may not pay rent due to illness and environmental factors that impact their ability to work and generate revenue; take action to decrease sickness, turnover.
[11:22] People travel from all over to India to drink water from a river that’s viewed as magical because of its strong flora of healthy bacteria fed by waste and sewage.
[12:48] TrueEnviro’s mold remediation product is Oceanic, which kills every pathogen and fungi; it has earned approval for use in hospitals.
[15:02] TrueEnviro can remove less building material, if it's not structurally compromised; instead of cutting mold out, the company cleans it to reduce client’s costs.
[15:46] Pre- and post-tests are conducted to obtain results and protocol for treatment.
Create a better way of life with a healthier indoor environment.
Bleach is not the best strategy for dealing with molds.
Property managers deal with odors left behind, especially the smell of cannabis, cigarette, and cat urine.
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Jason: Welcome DoorGrow hackers to The DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and expand your rent roll, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are DoorGrow hacker. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to grow property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, expand the market, and help the best property managers win.
If you enjoy this episode, do me a favor. Open up iTunes, find the DoorGrowShow, one word, subscribe, and then give us a real review. Thank you for helping us with that vision. I'm your host, property management growth hacker, Jason Hull, the founder of OpenPotion, GatherKudos, ThunderLocal, and of course, DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show.
Today's guest we have James Armendariz from Green Home Solutions TrueEnviro. Did I say all of that correctly?
James: Yes sir, you did.
Jason: Welcome to the show James.
James: Outstanding. I appreciate it Jason. How are you?
Jason: I'm doing great. You and I connected briefly at the Los Angeles NARPM Chapter. I was there presenting and speaking. They brought me in to speak, you were a new member there or something, and you got to do your little presentation. I think I handed your card and said, “Hey, let's get you on the on The DoorGrowShow and showcase what you guys do.” I would love to get a little bit of background just on you. Tell us a little bit about who James is and how you got into this.
James: Yeah. Our company’s called Green Home Solution TrueEnviro. My name is James Armendariz, I'm one of the owners, franchise here. I just got into the opportunity to own a franchise, really control our own path, help people managing, and create a better way of life, a healthier indoor environment.
Jason: We're going to be talking today about mold remediation and air quality. What challenges have you seen that property managers are dealing with related to this that your company help solve?
James: Well, that indoor environment. You turn up mold, you have some sort of water intrusion come in that may not get dried out in time. We had a client report it, threw some towels over it, and thought it was good, but mold grew. Somebody was reporting [...] or something like that. It’s really a pesky situation that tenant, property manager, landlord situation and if you can have somebody who can come in and provide testing and solution for that mold, or whatever the case may be, certainly in a timely manner, with the green background, it's a great solution for property managers.
Jason: What do property managers typically do to try and take care of these problems?
James: Well, some of them, Jason, they throw bleach on it. One of their first things is to have a maintenance guy go out, spray it with bleach, and hope that it's taken care of, when in all actuality, bleach is 99% water. The water content absorbed into that porous material, essentially feeding the mold and then bleach does what it does, it kills the color on the surface and they think it's gone, only to come back two or three weeks later and say, “Gosh, this mold hasn’t gone away. It’s back.” Well, it never really left. You just got it embedded, stole the color and that’s a lot of [...] to take care of the mold for you.
Jason: Bleach is not the best strategy for dealing with molds.
James: No sir. Only on a nonporous surface. If you're dealing with bleach in a fiberglass shower that's hard, that’s not going to absorb water or anything for that matter, certainly bleach is best. If you're dealing with anything that's a porous surface, you do not want to use bleach.
Jason: What are some other challenges that you're helping property managers with besides just the mold situation?
James: Odor is certainly relevant in a property manager’s life. You have somebody moved out, they lived in that unit for several years or whatever the case may be, and there is an odor left behind. They know walking in to do that evaluation after somebody's moved out, “I am not wanting this unit with that smell attached to it,” so they give us a call and there’s the four C’s, cannabis, cigarette smell, cat urine, and gosh I can't remember the other one we had, but those are some very pesky odors and were able to actually eliminate all three and other one. Seriously, the tough smell would be [...] from the cabinets, but those are some tough odors we can get rid of, and we've got a very efficient and affordable way to remove those from the environment.
Jason: I was going to ask about smoking, that’s a tough one. You'll come in and you use your materials or your systems and you can remove these odors in the property. Then we'll be able to rent much more easily. Rent for a higher dollar amount, most likely, than if it had these potential problems scaring off prospective tenants.
James: Correct.
Jason: What do property managers typically do to deal with the odor things? What are they trying to do on their own? They might have their own little ozone machine. What are they typically doing and how is it different than what you guys might provide?
James: Generally, we’re trying to take care of things the most efficient way possible as far as money involved. I've seen everything from people try to paint over orange cigarette stained walls, hit it with [...], bleach is always a go-to whether it's mold or odor. Those are some of the ways they're trying to but it's really just masking it or covering it up. It’s a band aid. We have a way to go in and eliminate that odor molecule scientifically, removing it from the environment and leaving behind nothing, just that smell of a fresh unit.
Jason: Mold, odor, does that cover the bulk of what you guys do? Is there is some other things that Green Home Solutions TrueEnviro will help with?
James: Yeah. We’re able to remove allergens, pathogens, mold, odor, bacteria. We're really able to help maintain and establish a healthy indoor environment. We have different services that we can offer. One of the things we're most excited about is our probiotic treatment and [...] machine. What that does is just flood an environment with healthy probiotics, creating the healthiest microbiome possible.
Jason: That sounds really interesting. I read this book called Eat Dirt. The author of this book was talking about the benefits of having healthy bacteria and how all these things that we do to try and kill bacteria, create an environment that doesn't allow for the healthy bacteria to remain, and even in environments that we might consider dirty or unsanitary like subway systems and things like this, there's this organic or this healthy biome that exist, that maintains this healthy stasis of bacteria. The bacteria is always going to be there, so if you can shift the balance towards healthier bacteria versus bad bacteria.
In the book, he even talks about literally not maybe eating dirt or different types of things that expose you to beneficial bacteria, or allow your kids to be exposed to bacteria in ways that your immune system can develop and stuff like this. This is a really interesting idea to spread probiotic. I haven't heard too much about that. I doubt there's too many property managers spraying pro bacterial sprayers, whatever, throughout a unit. What are the benefits of putting probiotic into a building or into a unit? How's that become a thing? I find that fascinating.
James: Good or bad, a bacteria is looking for a food source. If they have something to thrive on, it can swiftly take off. If you imagine for example the air ducts. The air ducts along any indoor [...] whether office or home, it’s really circulating good, bad, indifferent bacterias, particles throughout the home. If we can eliminate that food source that a bacteria will thrive on by flooding that environment with good probiotics, there's really no way that that bad bacteria whether it’s staph, MRSA, whatever it is, can thrive and really take off an environment.
This also means allergens, pet dander, all of these things are sources of food for good or bad bacteria. When something in an environment is completely overwhelmed with those healthy probiotics, there's really no chance for a bad bacteria or any sort of infection to take over the environment.
Jason: I would imagine one of the leading reasons why a tenant may end up not paying rent or suddenly is not able to pay rent might be due to illness, sickness, things that have affected their ability to work, and generate revenue. By having something like this in place, I would imagine that the property in general, I would imagine there would be some stats over time that would showcase the properties that have this treatment done if it works effectively, but they would then be in a situation which they had a lower sickness, or a lower turnover rate, or a higher instance in paying rent.
James: Yes, exactly. The other thing that people lose sight of is that a lot of odors are contributed to bacteria. If you think about that, a moldy sponge that sits on your sink, after a few days, that thing will start smelling. It’s due to the bacteria. Not only is it going to help create a healthier environment, but it’s going to cut down significantly on things that are lingering around.
Jason: Another interesting case that kind of connects to this just in my mind is, there's this major river in India. In India, people are just putting their waste material into that, they're putting all kinds of stuff, but the water is clean. It has this flora of bacteria that's so strong and powerful in it, it’s a good bacteria that it just feeds on any sewage, or soil, or any stuff that comes into it, and it's able to transmute it basically into something positive. People will travel from all over just to drink this water.
In India, they view this water as magical or amazing, because it's got this really strong flora of healthy bacteria. It’s fed constantly by waste and stuff that we would normally find would destroy water, but it's because the bacteria is able to convert that, and it converts it really quickly and effectively. I find that fascinating. We've covered the odor. We've covered the probiotic stuff that also can help with odor remediation, removing mold. Is there anything else that we're missing here?
James: No. That indoor environment, allergens, pathogens, those are all encompassed in that indoor environment. The products that we use are really what separates us from our competition. The mold remediation product is called Oceanic. It’s been fully vetted by the EPA. By fully vetted, I mean, they put this thing through 570 individual tests. Within 10 minutes, it killed every pathogen and fungi, mold being a fungi, earning an additional approval for usage in hospitals.
How safe is it? How effective is it? So much so that they will use it in a hospital. This product, we apply it as a bomb, on the surface and in the air and it will remove the mold and mold spores, not only from the surface, but within that air quality, and that’s the problem. Just because you see a mold and you cut out mold and remove it, doesn’t mean the mold is gone. It already put spores into the [...] and that it. What you can't see that is going to cause a problem, somebody gets sick or whatever the case may be. Now the property manager or landlord is dealing with the situation and really want to know about it.
Jason: Yeah, it makes sense. That’s this Oceanic product. That's part of why you're called Green Home Solutions. It sounds like these are all products that have been tested safe, they are largely green solutions that are friendly to the environment, and they're safe to be around humans and pets, correct?
James: Yes, that’s correct. The Oceanic is a plant-based enzyme, it’s catalytic in nature, it’s whole purpose in life is to kill mold source. The difference also is that you can go out and kill a mold source, but that can still cause an allergenic threat, or cause somebody to have an asthma attack. Our enzyme, what it actually does is breaks down the three protein layers that make up the mold source and break it down and leave behind a [...] thus removing that mold source completely from the environment imposing absolutely nobody any health concerns. That's really what separates us from our competition.
With that being said Jason, we're able to remove less building material. Just because something has mold, we’re not cutting it out. As long as it's not structurally compromised, we are going to clean in place, which means a tremendous savings. That’s really why people enjoy us. We’re green, safe for everybody that lives in the environment, and we're saving your home.
Jason: Right. There's nothing destructive about it and you're not having to replace as much. I love it. What are some of the main questions besides the safety of the product, besides what you guys do that potential clients have questions or concerns about, that we maybe haven’t covered?
James: Well, one of the concerns that we see is, we need to have testing. “I see it’s mold, you're telling me it’s mold, why do we have to do testing?” The testing is so important because we need to understand the scope of the job, how much of the air, if at all, has been affected? Without a firm understanding of that, we can't properly treat that environment, and do a clearance test saying, “It's clear to go [...]” the mold level is down to a healthy state and tenants are safe to be in that environment.
I cannot give you that guarantee without proper testing, done. It's really not worth it to cut the corner and say, “I'll skip the testing, just please take care of the mold.” We've got to do testing so we can provide the proper protocol and give every [...] that that environment is [...].
Jason: Alright, so part of what you do as part of your process is you'll test the before and you’ll test the after so that you can verify with confidence that there's a difference. Whether it goes to marketing or any sort of product or service that you're using, you want to be able to showcase or prove that there's been some sort of change, because that's why a product or service exists, it’s in order to impact some sort of change.
James: Yes. The testing, we’ll do pretesting. The conflict of interest to verify our work. We have a third party that does that, but we're not done until the test, the client’s test shows what [...] to show.
Jason: You don't even do the testing yourself. You use an independent third party to do the testing to verify the results and where they're at.
James: The post testing. We will do the pretesting. Use whoever you need to know for testing, but things you should consider, what protocol do they follow. I've seen people walk in with a petri dish and say, “We’re going to leave this here for a certain amount of hours and if it turns whatever color, you have mold.” Well, we’re [...] well of course it’s going to show whether there’s mold, what kind of mold are we dealing with? Is it a waterborne, watery mold, or is it just common mold spores that are out there right now that we are breathing in? That petri dish isn’t going to tell us something.
What protocol are you following and then who are you sending this to. Make sure that the lab’s accredited. Worst case scenarios, somebody ends up having to [...] and come to find out the lab wasn’t accredited at all and now we don’t really make a stand on it, if you will. Make sure that that lab is accredited. Make sure that the protocol is on point where it needs to be, and that will give you peace of mind that the job has been done perfectly.
Jason: Fantastic. Now you guys have a franchise location in California, you target the LA market, and maybe you're expanding out from there. How can people in that market get a hold of you and how can people get a hold of you if they're outside of that market. We've got listeners all over the US. How can they get in touch with the corporate entity?
James: We cover all of Southern California. If you're in Southern California, you can go to trueenviro.com and look us up. But for anybody anywhere in the country, go to greenhomesolutions.com, type in your zip code that you need [...] the proper channel so that it fits your assessment, you get your problem taken care of.
Jason: Awesome. James, thanks so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you sharing with everybody maybe a new perspective on dealing with mold, dealing with odor, and even adding healthy bacteria into the environment. I think it's been really interesting and I appreciate you being here.
James: I appreciate you and the opportunity, Jason. Thank you very much. I hope everyone has a great day.
Jason: Awesome. For every property manager that deals with order, you deal with these sort of situations, and you want to make sure that a property is safe and healthy, because you care about the families and the people that you're putting into these homes, then if you're in California you can check out trueenviro.com. If you are outside of Southern California, then you can go check out greenhomesolutions.com as James have mentioned.
Those of you that are new to the show, make sure that you subscribe if you're checking this out on YouTube or on iTunes. Make sure that you leave us a review. If you're listening on iTunes, we would love to get your feedback and hear what you think of the show. It helps us out and motivates us to do more and to provide this free service to you guys. Also make sure you get inside our community at doorgrowclub.com and check that out.
If it's been a while since you've had your website done, or tested, or since you focused on your marketing, you may want to just test your website out, go to doorgrow.com/quiz and test your website. This will help you see your website through my eyes a little bit more from a marketing perspective, whether it's effective at making you money and converting deals. You could potentially be missing out on tens of thousands of dollars in the future ROI every month from every deal that is being missed by your website not being effective. Check that out, test your website, and make sure to join our DoorGrowClub community full of awesome property management entrepreneurs. Apply to get in it, the group's free, but you can get to that at doorgrowclub.com. Bye everybody. I appreciate you tuning in. Until next time, to our mutual growth.
If you own a company, then you probably have insurance to help protect you when something goes wrong. However, have you ever experienced shock and dismay when you submit a claim and have it denied because your insurance doesn’t cover it? You thought you were covered, but didn’t truly understand your insurance policy.
Today, I am talking with Vicky Methven about understanding your options when buying insurance. She helps clients understand risk on all levels: What they bought, why they are buying it, and what they actually need.
[03:04] Insurance has changed because business has changed; traditional go-to commercial general liability policy is mostly for brick-and-mortar businesses.
[03:57] Different types of insurance policies and how they are structured; beginning gives you a lot, middle takes most of it away, and end gives you back something.
[04:25] People don’t read their insurance policy; decide to tell agent what they need.
[04:50] Delivery of Insurance Policy: Agent’s obligation to explain it to you effectively because no policy covers everything.
[06:03] What you need vs. what you think you need vs. what an agent tries to sell you.
[07:26] Personal insurance policies are built on the law of large numbers; commercial insurance is based on many more variables.
[08:45] Licensed realtors must carry errors and omissions (E&O) insurance to pay a claim when they make a mistake or neglect to tell client about their policy.
[09:55] Vicky views cyber risk as biggest challenge for property owners; property owners don’t buy or believe it - they’re dealing with other problems.
[16:57] Crooks gone phishing for plethora of data by hacking companies of all sizes.
[22:23] Don’t let professional actions negatively impact personal life; make sure you’re doing everything legally necessary to keep protections in place.
[23:42] Property managers need to put basics in place; may include general liability, lawsuit protection, E&O insurance, cyber policy, and a good lawyer.
[27:50] Every entity should be separate; avoid one business assuming risk of other one.
[30:39] Potential pitfalls in property management industry include master policies.
Talk about risk on all levels.
Policy: Beginning gives you a lot, middle takes most of it, and end gives you back something.
Delivery of Insurance Policy: Agent’s obligation to not only give you the policy, but explain it to you.
Insurance policies are built on the law of large numbers.
Yesterday’s mass-login attack on Basecamp is another reminder to protect yourself
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