#DoorGrowShow - Property Management Growth

DGS 118: Investing in the United States 0

Transcript

Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker.

DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.

At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show.

My guest today is Kim Lochridge. Kim, welcome to the show.

Kim: Thank you, Jason. Thanks for having me.

Jason: Kim is here with Engineered Tax Services. We're going to be chatting a little bit today about cost segregation and how it works. Those of you that don't really geek out on accounting, that's okay because I pay people to help me with that stuff. I don't either, so I'm going to ask all the questions. We're going to figure this out and make sure it'll all make sense.

Kim, give us a little bit of background on you, and how you got started with Engineered Tax Services.

Kim: Thank you for the internal question. I've been with Engineered Tax Services. I'm the Executive Vice-President, and I've been with them for about 10 years. I started out as an associate. I was on the board of a manufacturing company, and they were looking into some energy-efficient tax credits. It was just a brand new program that came out and tax rules. I found this company because they were doing that early on. That was really my beginning and how I met them. I just thought I came on board.

We've been growing the company since we started about five or six employees. Now we have about 130 across the country. We're doing about 150-200 studies a month across the country. It's pretty impressive.

Jason: All right. We will get into what those studies are in just a minute. Let's get into the subject at hand. Maybe we start in the preshow, in the Green Room, we were chatting for just a little bit. It was like, "When is this stuff?" "Maybe I should explain it a little bit to you, Jason." You did which is very gracious of you.

Why don't we start with the concept of depreciation on an investment? Just to make sure those that are not yet investors, or they're just new in the space, and they're starting to deal with real estate investors, understand this concept.

Kim: Okay. Depreciation is something that you get when you have an investment property. It's a tax deduction, essentially. On top of the mortgage interest or any of that expenditures that you spend on that property, you also get depreciation.

Depreciation is calculated depending on the type of property that you have. If it's a single family home or some type of residence like a multifamily and then in capacity, you're required to depreciate that property over 27½ years. If it's any other type of property like an office, retail, or anything commercial, that is 39 years. For today, I think almost everybody in the audience is more of a single family-owned, we’ll target more at 27½. Just know that that's interchangeable with 39 if it's commercial.

Essentially, if you have (say) a $300,000 single family home, you're going to be able to depreciate according to the IRS. You're going to divide that by 27½ and you end up getting $10,909 every year, that you can help use that to offset the income that you made on that property and then not pay tax on it.

Sometimes, if it's a smaller home, that might cover it, that and any expenses, and you won't have to pay any tax on the income (which is nice). But sometimes, if your cash flow's pretty good, once you're high right now, mortgage rates are low, you might've owned it for a while, then this could be something that could help you. If you have that, your income is more than the depreciation, then you're going to want to make sure to do something else. This is where cost segregation comes in.

Also, if you end up having multiple properties, and one is cash flowing much more than another, then you can basically take that cash flow, and you can do from one to another if it's in the excess. We'll go over some of those details a little bit more.

Essentially, the depreciation is just that. You have depreciation. You're required to depreciate a building if it's on a Schedule E or if it's a rental income. If it’s a second home, you're not going to depreciate it. It has to be a Schedule E or some sort of an income revenue-generating project.

Jason: The idea with depreciation is that everything in the property is going to depreciate at the same way?

Kim: Yeah, everything. It contains the whole building, whatever you bought. That means carpet, walls, paint, countertops, cabinets, anything that you bought in that purchase is going to be depreciated over 27½ years.

Jason: [...] lasts about 27½ years, right?

Kim: That's what the IRS says.

Jason: Okay, that's not reality. How do we solve this problem there?

Kim: Yeah, it's not reality. For decades since the 40s, cost segregation as a whole, what we're going to talk about today, has been around since the 40s when it began in court cases. That's because property owners went and argued the fact that, "This is what I'm doing. This isn't really fair because assets that I'm depreciating over 27½ years or 39 years are not going to last that long. I'm replacing them, in some cases, multiple times over the course of ownership. I want different rules. I want to be able to depreciate those separately."

It made it very difficult for a CPA to say how much is the carpet or how much is the building when you just bought up a building. You didn't put it in. You don't have receipts. You don't know how much the roof, the HVAC, the water heater and all that were. They can't break it down. The CPA doesn't have the ability to do that.

The IRS came back and over years of morphing cost segregation, they said, "We're going to give you the ability to do cost segregation, which means you have to have a building professional or an engineer, somebody who understands property and tax laws to come into the building, and segment (hence, the segregation) out each of the component of your building."

As a result of segmenting those out, you can depreciate them in different time zones, or different buckets. For instance—these are just some examples, depending on the purpose on some of those components—carpeting is always going to land in a five-year bucket. You're going to be able to depreciate all of your carpet in five years, not 27½.

Things like all of your landscaping, your driveways, curbing, gutter, landscape bushes, trees, all of Rockwell expenses, all of that stuff, gets to be depreciated over 15 years. That's more realistic. Things are going to be overgrown. You're going to have to rip things out. You're going to have to replace fences, all those types of things. They'll give you that bucket as well.

The law also says that you can break down certain components like mechanical, electrical, and plumbing, as long as it's for specific purpose for the building, and not necessarily for the building itself. It has to be for the business.

It gets pretty complicated and these rules have morphed since the 40s. There have been massive amounts of court cases that give us these rules today. As an example, something traditional out of today, if you have that same $300,000 single family home, percentage-wise, we're going to be able to take (conservatively) about 40% of the cost of that building or $120,000, and we're going to be able to shift that into faster class lives for you. You won't have to depreciate all of it over 27½ years, but we can break it out.

Essentially with that, that would be $180,000 gets depreciated over 27½ years, and about $120,000 gets split up between five and 15 years. Those are the good rules of thumb numbers to use. Following so far?

Jason: I'm with you.

Kim: I have to tell you, I love tax. I know it's really geeky, but it's okay. I can help you through it.

Jason: That's why people hire you. You're weird.

Kim: I get excited about it. Just to kind of give you an idea, I'm also a real estate investor myself. I have my day job, but I'm also an investor. I have invested in about 800 doors in multifamily in Texas. We have cannabis warehouses, we have a mobile home park, just my husband and I. We manage them all ourselves (which is pretty incredible) plus a full-time job.

Jason: Do you use this? Do you use cost segregation?

Kim: Of course. I don't do a deal without cost seg. It doesn't matter how big or how small.

Jason: That's the cool phrase for it, it's cost seg.

Kim: Yes, short for cost segregation.

Jason: Guys, get yourselves some cost seg. Pretty dope. Explain how your company helps with this. Obviously, accountants can do these. The property manager isn't doing this. The investor doesn't know when they will buy this property. How do we solve this problem?

Kim: Engineered Tax Services, this is our specialty. This is one of the main service lines that we offer as cost segregation. This is where I was saying that we do about 150-200 studies per month across the country, whether it's a single family residence all the way up to something like the AI Building in Chicago—big, high-rise, office buildings. We do cost segregations. We're very good at it. It's cost effective.

Most CPAs, if it's not over $2,000,000 then it's going to be too expensive. We have single family home rates. We have different levels of studies that we can do according to how long you are going to own the property, what you are going to be doing with the property and those types of things. Maybe we should go in and talk about some numbers, Jason, just to tell everybody (the listeners and the viewers) what it would mean for them.

Jason: Yeah. I don't know if this is where you're headed but if you're saying that a lot of people say, "Oh, that's for the big properties. That's too expensive to do for my clients on this single family home or my investment property." Help them justify the cost of doing this study. Nobody would ever do it with you ever unless it made sense financially.

Kim: I haven't since a project that isn't at minimum like a 50-to-1 return. It's going to be better than any improvement you can do in the house, any tenant change over, addition, or whatever you're going to do, your returns on this are going to be [...].

Jason: By doing this, by getting the cost seg study, working with you guys, and with their accountant to make this all happen, what has this allowed the investor then to do that they wouldn't have been able to do otherwise?

Kim: They're going to be able to depreciate more in the first years rather than just the $10,900 on the $300,000 property that we talked about.

Jason: Which means they're just reducing their tax liability? Paying less taxes? Which maybe means they have more money to reinvest?

Kim: Exactly. I want to preface this with the fact that there's a lot of investors that this is passive income for them. If you don't know whether your income from your investment property is passive or active, you want to talk to your CPA because sometimes this gets locked up. We're only talking about if you're a non-real estate professional, how to offset the income from the property so you're not going to have to pay tax on that.

This isn't a loophole. This is nothing that is illegal. This has been around for decades. This isn't something that I’m going to get in trouble if I do this. This is simply just a different method of accounting and it requires a professional to come in. Just like an inspector or an appraiser would come in to tell you more specific about a building that you're building. This is basically more of a professional coming in to explain more of the accounting side of it.

Jason: Okay. What do you call these experts that come out to the property to do a cost seg?

Kim: They're engineers.

Jason: Engineers?

Kim: Yeah. Engineers come out. They're either structural professionals or mechanical engineers that understand building mechanics. They understand how to break down different components in the building. They're our own employees across the country. They come out to do those studies to document everything.

Just keep in mind that the IRS says that if you have the building professional onsite, then that is required by the IRS. A CPA can do some sort of cost seg if they're knowledgeable about it, but many of them aren't going to be able to tell you how much the [...] costs. If they do, they're just going to do it from a square foot allocation. It's not going to be able to stand up in the event of an audit.

We offer audit defense, so if the IRS does come back and question this, we're going to cover all of that for you. We're going to defend that for you. Our reports are going to be solid. We're going to be here and that's what this covers. We're going to stay behind the product.

Jason: Okay. What else should people know about cost segregation or about your company that they may ask?

Kim: I think we need to talk about tax strategy because I think this is really important for people to understand. So many people (and I think in my opinion, too many people) don't understand taxes, and they let their professional handle it. That’s exactly what you said in the very beginning, Jason.

Jason: Yeah, that's what I do.

Kim: Yeah. We have a motto at Engineered Tax Services. The motto is we do believe that everyone should pay tax, but there's nothing in the code that says you have to leave a tip.

Jason: I love it.

Kim: If you're knowledgeable of that tax code and you understand what you are able to do, you will literally put money in your pocket. That's what this strategy does. That's what these studies do for you. You have to know how to use it and when to use it. That's what I can help with.

We help with realizing when is the good time to do cost seg and when it may not be a good time. When it would not be a good time to do a cost seg study is if you just flip. You're going to buy and you're going to renovate it. You're going to get rid of it. You will probably not want to accelerate depreciation. It's just not smart because you're essentially taking more depreciation upfront because you're going to hold on to those assets like the carpet, and you’re depreciating it over five years. You're not going to get all that money and keep it if you sell the building.

Jason: Right. You don't want to pay for the future owner of the place’s carpet.

Kim: Right. Unless you're doing substantial rehab—that's a different story—and if you're actually going to depreciate the property on a flip, you usually don't depreciate it because you're never placing it in service, if that makes sense. You're never really putting in service because it's all going to be under renovation. You're not going to depreciate it.

This does not include flippers, but it does include people who are renting their property. If you have this passive income, let's just take our $300,000 example from the beginning, you're giving the $10,900 in the depreciation every year. If your cash flow is bigger than that, more than that, and you're still paying some tax on that income, you might have to figure that out because you might have a job in your W-2, and you're not really sure what part of this is what you owed in tax because of the house and the income, and what's on your W2.

It's really important for you to see where this is coming from. "How much of my paying tax is from my rental property?" Ask those questions to your CPA, or we can work with you on that. We're looking at tax returns and can help you there. That's the first thing. Just ask some questions. If it doesn't make sense, let's make it make sense. Let's make sure that the common sense is there. At least, you trigger certain things in the brain.

When you get into that and you start realizing that you are paying tax on the income, that $10,000 isn't enough, then you're going to want to do some sort of cost segregation, so you can accelerate the depreciation faster especially if you're going to do renovations.

Many times we buy property, and then we're doing renovations, either immediately or very soon after or even just repairs and maintenance, and we have to capitalize that in many cases. Now, you're actually depreciating two assets. Let's say you bought a building that had a roof, then the roof gets replaced in five years, now you can't write off the roof. You have to capitalize it which means you have to depreciate it. You don't just get an expense for the cost of the roof. You have to capitalize it and depreciate it. Now you have two roofs. You're depreciating one in the purchase and you're depreciating one you just bought. That's where we really want to come back from that and say, "I don't want to depreciate two roofs. When I sell this property, I'm going to get killed in the accumulated depreciation on both of those assets. I only have one in the building. Why am I depreciating two?"

If you do a cost seg study on the original purchase, then you replace the roof, not only do you have to capitalize the new roof, but you can write off the remaining depreciation of the old roof. Traditionally, CPAs can't do that because they don't know how to value the roof if you don't have a cost segregation study.

Not only are we going to help you with your depreciation, but you're now going to have a very detailed fixed asset report that's going to outline every single aspect, every component of that building, and it's going to have a number attached to it. Every light switch plate cover on the wall, every baseboard, every layer of the roof, HVACs, and hot water heater. Now, you have this really great report that every time you do any improvement, it has to be capitalized. You're going to write off the remaining depreciation of the old.

Let's think about this for a minute. Let's say you buy a property. You have it for three years and the hot water heater goes out. It's a significant dollar amount, you have to replace it. You can now take that hot water heater if it's not expensable. You capitalize it and write off the old hot water heater. If you have it in a straight-line depreciation, that water is being depreciated over 27½ years. That means you're going to have 24½ years left of depreciation on the old one. Now, you're depreciating two of them. Why not get that money right now and help cover the cost of the new water heater? That's the beauty of cost segregation.

Jason: Nice. You mentioned real estate agents. Are they not allowed to do cost segregation on their properties if they're an agent?

Kim: No. It actually gets better for them. If you're a real estate professional, this is a whole different conversation.

Jason: A lot of our listeners, they're property management business owners, but they're also brokers, real estate agents, and are licensed, most of them.

Kim: Yeah. That's where we really want to get into. This is part of the tax strategy that I was talking about. If you are a real estate professional in any capacity, whether you're self-proclaimed real estate professional and you're managing your own property, or if you're actually a real estate professional, an agent, or a manager.

If you are paying tax, if you are a W-2 employee or if it's a 1099, if you're paying tax, and you're a real estate professional, you have had some misinformation. This industry right now, we have a real estate president, like him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He's a real estate president. He walked in and just literally handed the real estate industry a gift with a big red bow. It's called bonus depreciation.

Remember what when we said the $300,000, you'd have over 27½ years. You'd have $10,900. Then if we did a cost segregation, we would be able to accelerate the depreciation. That would be a lot better, actually. Now, with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2018, President Trump passed the bill for bonus depreciation. Let me go back a little bit in history. Bonus depreciation has been around since 2006. It was 50% bonus depreciation (and I'll cover what that 50% of what in a minute) on new construction or renovations. You're essentially able to really expense a lot of stuff to a certain point—at least half of it—for a long time from 2006 until through 2017.

In 2018, President Trump passed this Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Not only increasing the bonus depreciation to 100% from 50%, they also expanded it to allow purchases not just new construction. What this means is that, say you're a real estate professional. Let's say you're making $200,000 a year. Maybe it's tons more, but let's just call it that. Let's say you're making $200,000 a year, and at that level you're probably paying 33% tax rate or something like that. Maybe a little bit less. Let's call it 35% just to be generous.

Each year you're paying about $70,000 in income taxes. If you are a real estate professional and you go buy a property, let's just say you go buy this $300,000 house, and you're going to start renting it out. We have the cash flow, we have the income from that which is also a factor, but let's just talk about the tax for a minute. When and if you do buy a $300,000 property and you're a real estate professional, then you do a cost seg study on that building. Essentially, we're going to be able to write off about 40% of it. That's $120,000. Normally, if you're not a real estate professional, that's locked up in your passive income and it cannot offset your W-2 wages. It has to just stick with the income from the property or other properties that you owned.

If it goes in your Schedule E, if you own 10 properties, then that $120,000 will house all the other properties. But it is still stuck on the passive side because it's passive income. When you're a real estate professional, it's an active income. This is active depreciation, which also covers all of your regular W-2 or 1099 income when you're in the real estate industry.

Remember when I said that the $120,000 will be shifted over five or 15 years. We have to prorate that all out over these buckets. What's really cool about bonus depreciation, that means 100%, not 50% anymore on purchases, but 100% of your purchase price that is allocated to a class life less than 20 years. You heard me talk about the 5-year buckets and the 15-year buckets. Anything in a cost seg study that you reclassify that's less than 20 years which would be about 40% of this building, you're going to take as a writeoff in year one.

Now you get this $120,000 in the year that you purchase it. You can go buy a property on December 31st and it closes before the end of the year. You can offset your taxes by the amount of your results of cost seg study. In this case, $120,000 that you get to offset, all of your $200,000. You've made $200,000, you're going to depreciate $120,000. Now you're only paying tax on $80,000. But if you buy two houses, you basically just wrote it off, and you can pocket that $70,000 that you would've paid in taxes.

Let's just run the numbers real quick. If you have $300,000 and you're saying you're going to put 30% down, that's $90,000. Let's just say the $120,000 times the tax rate of 33%, so $40,000. Basically, what the $120,000 would equate to is about $40,000 in cash. Instead of coming up with your down payment of 30%, if you have to come up with 30%, you've got to come up with the $90,000 down payment to buy that $300,000 house. But you're going to get $40,000 back in your pocket. Immediately. As soon you file your tax return. You get to write that off. Buy two properties and you just write off your entire tax liability for the year.

Jason: Okay. This sounds almost too good to be true. Help me understand. How many agents do you think are doing this type of stuff, that they're not doing cost seg, and they're just leaving tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table.

Kim: Probaby 80%-90%.

Jason: This is a pretty big problem.

Kim: That’s why I’m on the show because I want to raise awareness. I will tell you personally, I'm an executive, my husband's an executive, we have high incomes, and when they came out with this bill, the first thing that I told my husband was, "We have to go and buy some properties." I am a real estate professional by trade because of what I do anyway, so I'm a professional. We are under contract to buy a mobile home park. We're closing on December 31st. We have good income and I bought it, but I actually am going to have about $400,000-$500,000 write-off this year for my taxes.

Jason: Nice. Is there anything else that people need to know about this? That was a really good point. Any other major things that we should be aware of?

Kim: Yeah. Bonus depreciation goes through 2026.

Jason: Okay, then what happens?

Kim: Then it starts to phase out starting in 2023. It goes from 100% to 80%. Then 2024, it goes down to 60%. Then 2025, it goes to 40%. Then in 2026, there's only a 20% bonus depreciation. It doesn't mean cost seg is not beneficial. It's still beneficial to do that just like it would've been without bonus depreciation, but there's a greater incentive to do it now. This is all brand new tax rules that just came out in 2018. If you're saying to yourself, "Hey, why haven't I heard of this? This has got to be a scam." It's not. This is a big deal. It's huge for President Trump [...].

Jason: It's a big deal. Was this done to basically spark the economy? Is that why they're throwing this out there? Such a big [...], so to speak, then they're depreciating their bonus depreciation over time? They're going to be taking it down, but is that the mindset of why was it put out there?

Kim: Yeah. I'm in the tax community for the real estate roundtable in Washington, DC. When the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act was being formulated, we had long discussions about how to deal with depreciation and what to do. Everyone was worried about the real estate being in the 7th or 8th inning as far as the cycle goes. “Hey, we’re a little bit worried about this. How can I continue to be sustainable at this rate?”

The big talk of this Tax Cuts and Jobs Act on President Trump's docket was solely to raise the GDP and just really get the economy going a little bit better. What they did to incentivize that is to offer this bonus depreciation. This was part of that incentive to buy property, exchange property. They also, in this package, were part of the opportunity zone, which I know a lot about. If you don't know about that, we can do a whole another show on that, about purchasing property in an opportunity zone, and having essentially no tax liability on that after you held it for 10 years (as long as you do some improvements). That's a whole another show that we can do.

All of these are part of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. It's very powerful, and in my opinion, I think we probably, at that time, went from a 7th or 8th inning in real estate back down to a 5th or 6th inning. That's where it really continued to boost and postpone any kind of real estate downturn.

Jason: Who is aware of this and is capitalizing on this? Obviously, your company and your clients. Who's been taking advantage of this?

Kim: We do a really good job educating CPAs across the country. We try. There are a lot of CPAs out there. We cannot touch them all. We've got 120 people and there's literally hundreds and thousands of CPAs. We do the best we can. We love CPAs. We want to educate them. We want to connect with them. If you are not doing this and you want to do this, it would be great for us to work together. I really want to talk to your CPA because he has more of use out there that I want to make sure he’s or she's aware and give him or her resources to be able to let other people know that we do this. We do this very economically.

I work with a lot of property management companies, investors, and funds. I work with a lot of family offices. I work with a lot of individuals. The word is now starting to get out there. There's a lot more individuals that are starting. We do a lot of shows like this to bring what really the wealthy has done for a long time down into mainstream. That's really what we've been doing.

Jason: Random seg question, if property managers came to you, and they've got lots of investors, is there some sort of service that they could work with on you that they can add as a new revenue stream to push their investors towards you?

Kim: Yeah. Absolutely have them call us. We can do some sort of [...] share or something like that, or just the finder's fee or something like that. Property managers, historically, have been difficult. Property managers do the property management. They usually don't get involved in the taxes. It's hard for them to have those discussions because a lot of times with the owners they'll say, "Hey, you should really do cost seg," they're going to go, "Oh, it's taxes. My CPA handles that." Now you're dealing with two different layers.

Just like you said in the beginning, "If it has anything to do with taxes, I'll let my CPA do it." Those people have that mentality like, "Oh. I'm sure my CPA's already doing this if it's that big." I'm telling you, please listen to me, most CPAs are not doing this. I'm telling you that right now. Most of them aren't. Be proactive. Take your own taxes and your knowledge into your own hands and ask the appropriate question.

I will leave you with a kind of case study of a project I've been working on right now. This is incredible. I literally have a client that I was referred to from a CPA. The CPA brought me the client—a very good CPA client of mine. He owns tons of property all over the country. His family owns property and I've done all their cost seg for about five or six years. We finished the project.

I was in my closing call with them, explaining those studies in the last report and everything. He says to me, "I'm part owner in this mobile home park. I think we should probably do this. Do you think it will be worth it?" I said, "Absolutely. Mobile home parks are killer. They're amazing." They do way better than single family homes or multifamily with that matter.

They said, "Yes. It's absolutely worth it. Get me the depreciation schedule, and we'll go over it." He put his partner on the phone with me, and we talked about it. Then, they finally sent me the depreciation schedule. The mobile home park was put on their depreciation schedule as land, $3.5 million as land. I looked at that and I almost gasped, that I called, and I was like, "That's not good. You're not depreciating this at all. Land is not depreciable. It looks like you just bought a raw piece of land." He goes, "Well, that's just all there is. We don't own any of the parks." I go, "Yeah. But you own the pads, the electrical post, you own a laundry facility and there's a house there, there's fencing and there are all kinds of stuff. They are land improvements. That's all 15 year depreciation. You have to pull out the land first then depreciate what's left." He goes, "Oh, man."

Long story short, we get on the phone with the CPA. They're like, "Why didn’t you depreciate this? Why is it all on land?" He's like, "Oh, well. I didn't know." The CPAs don't know this stuff. Make sure that you're asking questions. If you have even just the inkling, reach out to me. I try to be very responsive to my emails, text messages, and whatnot. Email me. It's klochridge@engineeredtaxservices.com. Shoot me an email. Give me some synopsis on what's going on. Send me your depreciation schedule and I'll be able to tell you real quick if we can do something or not.

Most CPAs are not doing this because we don't have the resources. They don't even know. How was a CPA to know how much the electrical post we're going to depreciate? How was he supposed to know how much the pads are? They don't. You have to have a professional to go out there.

Appraisers can't do it because they're going to tell you what's in there and what's the total value is. They're not going to break it down. Inspectors are going to tell you what's wrong. Nobody's going to tell you what the cost of every component is in that building. That's where the power comes.

Jason: Awesome. This is really interesting to me. I appreciate you coming on the show, Kim. You gave out your email address, which we will have in the show notes as well, and on the website. How else can they get in touch with your company?

Kim: Our website is engineeredtaxservices.com. I'm also on the back page with our team. Just pick my profile and shoot me an email from there as well. I'm happy to help you. I have an assistant that can handle all the influx of emails that might come. We'll be able to work through them all. I'd love to hear it from you and please just reach out, so we can at least talk about tax.

Jason: Perfect. Kim, thanks for coming out and hanging out with me here on the DoorGrow Show.

Kim: Anytime.

Jason: All right. We'll let you go. Bye.

Kim: Okay. I’ll talk to you soon. Bye, Jason.

Jason: All right. There you have it. Really interesting topic. I didn't know about that. It's really fascinating. I'm sure it might be new to a lot of you. If that was helpful, make sure to reach out to them. If you are watching this on YouTube, make sure to subscribe, and catch these videos as they come out. If you are paying attention to us on iTunes and listening, make sure to subscribe on iTunes. If you can give us a little review, like this video, whatever you can do to help us about, it means a lot.

We're putting out a lot of free content. We would love it if you would reciprocate just a little bit and help us out. It helps us get the message out. It helps us get greater awareness and help more property managers change this industry.

I'm Jason Hull of DoorGrow. This is right towards the end of the year. This may come out in 2020 on iTunes and other places. To everybody, happy holidays. I hope you have a fantastic 2020.

If you're looking to grow your business, you're wanting a vision for 2020, you want 20/20 vision, you have a plan, and you want to do something different, reach out to DoorGrow. I'll say this real quick, if you didn’t get the results you wanted in 2019 or the result you wanted in 2018 or in 2017, you know exactly where you're going to be at the end of 2020. You're going to be at the same level of results you had every year so far. That's your default future.

If you want to have a creative future that's dramatically different, then I would love and be honored to help you create that. We've helped hundreds of companies do that. Those that listened to me, followed, do what I tell them to do, and show up to our coaching calls, they get those results. They get it. I would love that to be you.

That's it. Bye, everyone. Until next time, to our mutual growth.

You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com.

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Download this Episode

Feb 18, 2020

What do you want to do with your life? Sit on the sidelines in a cubicle or travel the world? Take control of your life instead of watching it pass you by. Consider investing, start your own business, and enter the world of entrepreneurship.

Today, I am talking to Reed Goossens, Lead Asset Manager/Chief Operations Officer of Wildhorn Capital, about investing in the United States. After spending two years abroad, having a great time, and meeting the girl of his dreams, Reed returned to Australia to sit in a cubicle as a civil structural engineer and wonder how he could get paid to travel.

You’ll Learn...

[03:17] Real Estate Investing: Rich Dad Poor Dad ignited Reed’s interest in being an entrepreneur.

[03:45] Reed’s Journey: Leaving the safety of his cubicle in Australia to moving to America without a job for the love of his future wife.

[03:58] No job, no network, no problem: Took just six months for Reed to find a job in the United States and purchase his first investment property.

[04:29] Investing in the U.S. and 10,000 Miles to the American Dream: Reed went from reading Rich Dad Poor Dad to writing his own books on real estate investing.

[04:51] Structural Engineering: Prepared Reed for his future in America when it comes to construction. He’s built about half-a-billion dollars worth of infrastructure worldwide.

[06:21] Do you want financial freedom? How to get started in real estate investing.

[07:37] Benefits: Real estate investing creates cash flow, appreciation, and amortization.

[08:07] Rental properties aren’t turnkey, but property management is key to success.

[10:00] How to find a good property manager? Business culture with growth opportunity.

[14:10] Ok Boomer: It’s not just about doing work whether you’re miserable or not. People want meaning and purpose.

[15:27] Invest in Yourself: Self-educate by reading books, listening to podcasts, joining local meetup groups, and expressing a willingness to learn.

Tweetables

Structural Engineer: Scheduling, foundation and soil issues, you name it, throw it.

You make money when you buy, you lose it through bad property management.

Culture: Critical and pivotal to foundation of business and why clients can trust them.

Change and grow. People want meaning and purpose. Get out of your own way.

Resources

Reed Goossens

Email Reed Goossens

Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki

DGS 117: Brand Standards and Rising Expectations in the Market 0

Transcript

Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker.

At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today’s guest, I’m hanging out with Reed Goossens of Wildhorn Capital. Reed, welcome to the show.

Reed: Good day, Jason. Thanks for having me on the show, mate.

Jason: All right. You’ve got a really cool accent. Tell everybody where you’re from.

Reed: From deep West Texas, mate, down below New Zealand and Australia.

Jason: Very deep Texas. Got it.

Reed: I’m originally from Australia. Grew up an Aussie, I went to school there, and moved to the United States back in 2012 when I moved here for two loves. One love was for my then girlfriend and now wife, and the other love was for the Big Apple. That’s really how it got me to the United States.

Jason: All right. Those women man, they get us to move. They just do it. Awesome. We’re going to be talking about investing in the US but before we get into that, tell us a little about how you got into this and then lead us right into this topic.

Reed: Sure. Let’s do it. My background is in structural engineering. I went to university for structural engineering, graduated in 2007, went abroad which means going overseas, and worked in the London 2012 Olympic games for about a year back in 2008. Then, I moved to the south of France, had an incredible life journey down there and that’s actually where I met my American wife or at the time, girlfriend. We fell in love and after galavanting around the south of France, I crossed the Atlantic Ocean. I worked for some Russian billionaires on some super yacht (it’s a whole story in itself). I found myself back in Australia in 2010 in a cubicle working as a civil structural engineer.

The whole idea of I spent these two years abroad, having a great time, meeting the girl of my dreams, and I’m now sitting in this cubicle going, “Geez, what the hell?” I want someone to pay me to live this life of travel. Really, the thing that came up to me was investing, but I didn’t know what entrepreneurship was. I didn’t even really understand real estate investing. I picked up the book Rich Dad Poor Dad, and that’s back in 2009, a decade ago. That was the spark that got it all started.

From there, I took the blinkers off a little bit. I definitely felt like a star athlete sitting on the sidelines, watching my life go by, and I really wanted to take control of that life. Over many years of self-education, I ended up moving to the United States. I quit my safe engineering job in Australia and moved in early 2012 to chase Erica, my wife.

I moved here without a job. I didn’t have any network here and over a short period of time I was able to find a job. I think within six months of moving to the United States, I had my first property purchased, a triplex. The various [...] here in the United States for those people who are not aware are very, very low compared to Australia. The whole thing about Rich Dad Poor Dad says, “Get started by putting cash in your pocket and having assets.” That’s really where it got started.

Jason: All right, and you’ve written some books.

Reed: Yes I have. I’ve written two books, Investing in the US which is the podcast form, now in book form. I’ve written a second book with a couple of other Aussie entrepreneurs called The 10,000 miles to the American Dream. We’ve all moved out here and successfully invested in real estate, inside of real estate businesses, and now we’re sharing our story with the world.

Jason: Structural engineering, how do you feel that prepared you for the stuff that you’re doing now.

Reed: It hugely prepared me. I probably can walk into a room and run rings around most people in terms of when it comes to construction. As a project manager in a career, I had built about half a billion dollars worth of infrastructure, multi-family retail across the globe. Scheduling, understanding foundation issues, and soil issues, you name it, throw it at me, and we can go bat if you want to go bat. It also got me into a role that I worked for a developer in Long Beach for many years and learned the business side of the real estate game through them as well.

Jason: Where are you located now?

Reed: I’m in LA. I was in New York for a couple of years back in 2012–2013, then moved back out to sunny California because it was just too cold in New York.

Jason: I get it. I’m just north of you. I’m in Los Angeles county, in Santa Clarita.

Reed: Nice. We have to go meet up and go surfing some time because I love the beach.

Jason: Yeah. The beach is cold, though.

Reed: Let’s see, mate. Let’s see.

Jason: Yeah. Reed, really cool to connect with you. Let’s get into this topic of investing in the US For those that are listening across the pond or those that are in the US, let’s make this relevant for both of them.

Reed: Sure. Let’s do it. What do you want to know? I’m an open book.

Jason: Where should we start? How does somebody start investing if they have no clue? You’ve been there at one point and if somebody has never done real estate investing, they haven’t invested themselves whether they’re here or not, how would they get started?

Reed: Well, I think the whole idea is about what you want to achieve in your life. Do you want financial freedom? A lot of people get started in real estate investing to achieve some sort of financial freedom.

Per my story in the beginning of the show, I felt stuck. I felt trapped in a cubicle. I wanted more to do with my life. The whole thing that drives me, Jason, is the fact that I have a fear of regret. If I wake up when I’m 65 years of age going, “Geez, I wish I’d given that a go,” I’ll have regrets. The whole thing that gets me driving, gets me up in the morning is going out and pushing my boundaries and being uncomfortable.

The whole thing about real estate investing is you’ve got to ask yourself, “What do you want to do it for?” Is it to create financial freedom for your family? Is it to create a little bit of extra income? You love your job, but you just want to put your money to work and not sit in a bank? Whatever that might be, real estate investing is really big compared to the stock market investing. It’s one of the best investment vehicles in the world because it has all the benefits.

There’s the four benefits as cash flow, there’s appreciation, there’s amortization, and it has appreciation of a long-term in terms of market appreciation. There are many benefits that you can have through investing in real estate compared to other stock investing or bond investing that make it a really quite a safe haven. It really goes back to, “What do you want to grow for your family or for yourself personally?” Once you answer that question, we can get off into the details of how you go do it.

Jason: One of the challenges that you’ll see in the real estate industry is that a lot of people will make these claims. You see these gearers that are like, “Hey, just get into real estate investing. Buy this matching program and then it’s going to be easy.” And then they end up with these rental properties that are really difficult and they realize it’s not so turnkey. They’ve got tenants. They’ve got renters. Property management, maybe more than anything, is kind of the gateway to this because property management played a role in the properties that you tend to be involved in or the real estate investment that you do.

Reed: Yeah, 100%. In property management, you make money when you buy, you lose it through bad property management. If you don’t have the right property managers on board, you can be royally screwed. We’ve experienced it. We have the daily grind of running a real estate investment firm at Wildhorn Capital, we have a constant struggle with trying to find good bums and seats to make sure that when they’re running our $40–$50 million assets, that they know what they’re doing, and they’re competent.

You might be in certain markets which might not attract the right type of property managers. You really got to be really careful at how you select the people who sit at the helm of the ship of any property that you buy. We happen to buy large multi-families, so we have 200–300 units at any one property. There is a lot going on, a lot of moving pieces. Making sure that you have those right people in those positions, to make sure that they’re steering the ship in the right direction and you’re not going to lose money, and the deal’s going to continue to perform for the investors, is really important.

My job within Wildhorn Capital is to make sure as a Lead Asset Manager, Chief Operations Officer, is really to make sure that those individual property managers, those individual sites are doing what they’re supposed to be doing. The original point, property management is the key to success.

Jason: Love it. I get asked this question all the time when I go on other people’s podcast. They’re always asking me, “How do you find a good property manager? How do you identify them?” I want to put this on somebody else for a change. What do you look for when you’re looking for either a good property management company you’re going to partner with, in situations where you need that, or when you’re doing hiring to find a good property manager?

Reed: Let’s answer the first question. To give some context, we have 1700 units across 8 assets in Austin, Texas. We have a third party property manager. I live in Los Angeles. My business partner lives in Austin, but we stood third party better.

Probably, what a lot of people would do whether you start with a single family or you’re buying 150 units, you’re probably going to go out at the beginning to a third party. How do you identify those third parties? We just recently went through a transition. We had to fire our original property management company and it really boiled down to a couple of things.

One was culture. Business culture is really, really important. If you’re going to be attracting someone to earn, sitting at an asset, $50,000–$60,000 a year, managing a $45 million asset, you better bloody have a good business culture. You need to have room for them to grow, and they want to grow into more than just being a property manager. Maybe they want to be regional. Maybe they want to get into the executive office.

If you don’t have that growth opportunity, combined with somewhat a decent pay, and then also the training wheels (I’ll call it), the training services and programs within the company, within the organization, to help those people blossom, really, what we as owners employ these property managers for is to go out into the market and find the best “eggs on the shelf” and form those eggs into great, successful, property managers so our assets can be successful.

We look for a couple of things. When we do interview asset managers, we look at how many properties are they currently managing. How many units do they have on the contract? How long are they doing this for? We go and get references from other owners. How have working with ABC property company been? Have you enjoyed their reporting systems? Have you enjoyed their business culture or are they really transparent with you?

There’s a lot of things out there that you need to be aware of when you’re hiring and sitting down and “dating” a property manager because you need to go and understand all the rigmaroles that go on with asset managing it. I hope that answered your question.

Jason: Yeah. I would agree. I think one of the first things when a property management company comes to me that’s struggling to grow and to figure out how to grow the business, that I will tackle with them is helping them get clarity on that cultural piece. It’s never the thing that they think they need but it’s so critical and pivotal to the foundation of their business. It’s why clients can or cannot trust them.

Helping them get clear on their personal why and then helping them get clear on the why their business exists, and to feed that personal why. One of my goals is to create this golden thread all the way from them, the business owner, the property management company, their why, through to the business why, through to the person with the rental property wants. If I can help them create that connection with each potential client, sales happen really quickly. Deals happen very easily because there’s a golden thread of trust between what the person wants and what the business owner wants, the property manager wants. They can see that. It’s transparent.

That’s so critical and we have to have culture. It has to exist in order for that to happen. If your team can sense that and can see that, then you’re able to attract A-players. B-players are not going to stay in a company without good culture. Especially millennials and Gen Z, they’re not going to work in a situation in which they’re just getting paid to do something that keeps them miserable. They want purpose. They want meaning.

You’ll see a lot of dinosaurs in the industry get really frustrated because they’re saying in business… Then there’s this trend of the “OK Boomer.” But the Boomers are like, “Well, we pay you, so just do the work. Do the freaking work.” That’s not how people want to live nowadays. It’s not just about hunkering down and doing work whether you’re miserable or not. People want purpose.

Reed: You bring up a good point. This comes not [...] also rent a business culture, but how you run the business with OK Boomers and a historical way of smacking someone over the back of the head if they’d done it wrong. They’re the old school dinosaur ways of the ways managers work. We’ve come a long way and as much as we—I’m a Millennial, I’m on the early end of it—get criticized for not working and all that sort of stuff. Look at my track record. I come from Australia.

For most people, I don’t want to swear on this podcast but you know what I’m going to say. Millennials also have created a lot of changes and disruptions in the way that we approach things and change through our thinking around it. That is really important. If you’re not willing to change and grow, then you’re going to be stagnant and someone’s going to eat you.

Jason: [...] Xennial which is kind of Gen X and kind of Millennial, and sort of bridges the gap. I remember dialing phones with the rotary dial.

Reed: I was born in 1986, so I still remember that. I remember my first mobile phone in Australia was actually when I was 18 years of age. It was the Nokia 3310 and it’s funny.

Jason: I had the Blackberry and I’ve had just about every version of iPhone that’s existed.

Reed: Exactly.

Jason: I think there’s a big shift in culture. I think that if business owners of larger property management companies, the most successful companies, they all have culture. They all bring up culture. I think a lot of smaller property managers hear them talk about it and go, “I don’t get it. That doesn’t make sense.” Then you’ll see a lot of property managers get to maybe about 200–400 door category and this is where if they don’t have culture, they get stuck.

I taught the second sand trap in property management. It’s because they don’t have culture, they’re not able to maintain and retain good staff, and they don’t have a clear vision, clear purpose, clear values, a clear mission statement or whatever you want to call it. There’s a disconnect, and they’re wondering, “Why can’t I just find good managers?”

One of my business coaches said this, “If you don’t have the business that you dream of, you’re not yet the person that can run it yet.” I think that a lot of times, we as business owners externalize everything. “Oh, it’s the Millennials. Oh, it’s my marketing. Oh, it’s my website.” Really, I found that if I could get the business owner to see that it’s them and make changes, everything else changes by default.

Reed: I have a similar business coach. You have to be a key person of influence in your industry. Whatever industry that is, if it’s property management, if it’s being a real estate investor/entrepreneur. I’m trying to attract investors to me, so I’m putting all the content out there. I’m sitting on this podcast right now, talking about the ins and outs of building business culture.

It’s easy as humans to blame something else. It’s someone else’s fault. It’s this one’s fault. But that’s why as humans, we can’t stop learning. If you stop learning, you stop growing. If you stop growing, you’re dead. It’s really about that embracing of change. Ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore. If you don’t know something, go ahead and freaking learn it. If you don’t want to go do that, well then you’re dead in the water.

That’s this whole mindset of changing the way in which we were historically taught to learn, grow, do business, manage people, expectations, and blah-blah-blah. We can get all into it, but it boils down to, you were right, you have to be a key person of influence in yourself. Your business is you. You are a business and you’ve got to start there. From that, people would want to feed off you, be around you, and then want to grow with you. If you don’t have that growth opportunity, you can’t attract better employees, better clients, and have better outputs for your company. I like this a lot.

Jason: It certainly makes a lot of people uncomfortable, too. I get a lot of flack in it in this industry just for being a change bringer. Some people don’t like it. They don’t like that I’m not a property manager, I’m from outside, and I’m bringing change to this industry.

Reed: “You don’t grow, you don’t know.”

Jason: Yeah, and for a while, I was kind of fearful of that fact. I thought, “Well, I’ll just stay in the background.” My business coach has consistently pushed me to get more and more uncomfortable as we were talking about earlier.

Side question. You’ve got all this business in Austin which is so favorable and friendly to business because I’m legitimately looking to move to Austin. I’m seriously considering it. Why are you still in LA?

Reed: Two things. The beach and my wife’s family are from here.

Jason: Oh, yeah.

Reed: But it’s insane. I set up my company to be a life by design company. It’s me and my business partner and I’ve got a couple of other small employees. I still outsource the general contracting. I still outsource the property management. As we grow, we have 17,000 units now but a 150 million under management with our investors.

We want to keep it lean. I’m Australian. I just got back from a 2½ week vacation. It wasn’t really a vacation, I was working every day, but I went to the Rugby World Cup in Japan. I was in Australia. If I have Internet, I want to work and my business partner’s completely aligned with me. We’ve always joked that if we ever need to get HR within the house, we’re done growing.

Part of the business of owning multi-family real estate is what can I control? The engineer within me wants to control everything. It’s the business systems, it’s the ecosystems that you create that can truly create true wealth, but like property management, do I want to go off and create a property management company?

I know how much property management is a thankless job. I was literally sitting in my property management company’s head office in Austin the other day, beating him over the head about budgets in 2020. Literally beating him over the head. And having clashes with upper management, that they’re saying stuff in these meetings that should have been prepared, so I’ve just literally experienced it with, and that’s got nothing to do with property management. That has got to do with how you manage your people.

Some people come into the meeting not prepared for budget review. I literally flew in from LA. What else are we going to do? The expectation is I’m sitting here ready to review budgets with you and you don’t know if these are baked yet.

There are all these things that go on with any corporation, that you got to make sure you have your systems in place the hierarchy, and to your point before that, the old dinosaurs, there’s a couple of old dinosaurs in that organization that we have to get a bit of feathers ruffled, but you got at those honest conversations because I am the client and I do expect things to be presented in a certain way. And that’s regardless of the fact that there’s a property management company.

Jason: Okay. What did you notice difference-wise between the Australian market? I would imagine you’re still connected to that. We get a lot of Aussies coming over here, where property management is very well-seasoned in Australia. We talk about a property manager as a household word, like a realtor is here, like people know what property management is over there is not as common here. Stats like 80% of single family residential rentals there are professionally managed by property managers. The US is nothing like that yet.

What is your perception on the differences between the US market and the Australian market when it comes to real estate investing, rentals, and property management?

Reed: I’m going to answer your first question first. This is because I’ve got a different lens on. Yes, you’re correct. My dad has an investment property and he has a property manager. When they say property manager, they’re really a real estate brokerage company that does sales for new homes. To keep the ecosystem going and the lights on when the market’s crap, they do single family rentals or vacation rentals, something like that. So that’s definitely well-baked.

What isn’t well-baked? In Australia, we don’t have the per the construction way of financing set up in Australia. We don’t have large multi-family. I moved to the United States and I, as a 29-year old, bought a 150-unit complex. I would never have had the opportunity to do that in Australia because the way in which the financing is set up is that, it’s a condo market. Before it goes into construction, they need to pre-sell X amount of units before it goes under construction. We have all this condominium market.

Within the condominiums, you might get ABC property manager to manage one of the units and you have someone completely different managing the other unit. Unlike here in the States where if I go to Texas, there’s a leasing center and I walk into the leasing center because one entity owns the entire thing.

One thing really missing from the Australian market is in [...] the commercial property management game. I just mentioned the other day in the corporate office of my PM firm, is like, “Guys, there’s an opportunity to go to Australia and start this out as multi-family starts to have more traction.” I see this as the opposite, that in the commercial multi-family space, America has it dialed in. It’s a true business. I know universities offering degrees in property management now, whereas in Australia, because we don’t have that commercial multi-family space, you haven’t driven that professionalism that I’ve come to expect here.

Again, I’m not in the single family world as much you plug in both here or in Australia, so I can’t comment as much on that, but just from the large multi-family commercial space, Australia is very mid-90s, like the Internet was in the mid-90s. No one really understood what it was, so that change. Does that answer your question?

Jason: Yeah, very much. That’s very interesting. I love hearing about the contrast, because contrast gives us perspective here in the US.

As far as investing in the US, what are some of the most common questions that people ask you when they hear about what you do, they’re curious, and they’re interested (maybe) getting into this?

Reed: From a high level, it doesn’t break down what the United States is. I’m going to compare to other western countries, so Australia, Europe, and Canada to some extent. I’m just going to break it down to Australia because I’m from Australia. You guys have 300 million people who live in this country. You are the king of capitalism. You guys have this financing options up the wazoo. You’ve got thousands and thousands of financing options.

With a large population, you have forced and you can inhabit north, south, east, west. You can pretty much inhabit the entire land mass. You force these what I call secondary markets. You have the New Yorks, the LAs, the San Franciscos, the Chicagos of the world, where people want destination cities. But then, because of the population and where jobs are being driven to, you have these secondary and tertiary markets. Through secondary and tertiary markets, you have more affordability. And that’s purely driven from a population point of view because you just got so many people.

Compare that to Australia, we got the same land mass as America (excluding Alaska, we roughly got the same land mass), but we only have 25 or 26 million people. We have not even one-tenth of the population of what you guys have. America has this really weird, awesomeness of having so much population, so much affordability, it drives cash flow. But there’s also appreciation, it’s got a ton of pro-business, all these things and you compare it to other first world countries.

We don’t have the cap rates that you guys have. You look at Charlotte, North Carolina or Austin. Historically was a seven- or eight-cap market. It’s now transition into these very low digit sort of four-fives. You compare that to Sydney, Brisbane, London, or Hong Kong where commercial real estate and real estate in general where cap rates have been like 1% and 2% because the supply and demand is forced to go that low.

So, there’s these still pockets of growth in America where, because you can inhabit all these different parts of the country and through job growth, that you guys have these awesome opportunities for investing, and that’s where a lot of people have heard about it, where you’re cash flowing in the States. You got appreciation and all these great financing options. It’s also the US dollar, like where do I come? Where do I sign up?

A lot of people hear about it internationally, and they come and want to invest here. That’s why I started investing in the US, and it was more of an idea of my journey, about how I’ve got started because when I first moved here, I had no idea what a credit score was. I had no idea what an LLC was. I had to learn all that stuff.

Jason: All right. I think there’s an advantage of doing that. There’s an advantage in coming into an industry or into a market with no experience in it because your eyes are wide open. Nothing’s assumed, you have to learn everything from the ground up.

That’s been my experience coming into the property management industry. There were so many things that I looked at and said why is everyone doing it that way? Why are people doing it like that? That doesn’t make sense to me. And why is pay rent the largest called action on their website when they want more owners and that’s the primary goal with this website?

There’s this disconnect and I think that’s the advantage of coming in with this outside perspective. You coming into this, what do you think Americans are missing? That they just assume? That has given you this advantage? Because you’re doing obviously quite well.

Reed: And thanks to America, I have been doing quite well. Let’s not get any wrong here like I haven’t made money in Australia. People ask me, “How do you make money in real estate?” I’ve never purchased anything in Australia. I got my fishing lines in the water out there, but until I actually go and do something, my whole portfolio is here in the United States.

You are correct. Perspective is the difference between what gives me an advantage over someone else. A lot of the American ethos is being around, “I got to go to school, I get this huge debt, I can’t go traveling after university because I got this debt, and then I will get no job. Once I’m in a job, I can’t leave, I’ve got a 401(k).” All of a sudden, you’re 65 and like, “What the hell just happened?”

As Australians, it’s in our DNA to go traveling. I didn’t come out of university with six figures of debt. It was absolutely more socialistic society back down in Australia, but that it allowed me to travel the world in open and give me that perspective so I can, when I move here, I can see an opportunity to go invest in America, I’m going to take those with two hands because I can see the opportunities compared to where I come from, how cash flow is so much more prevalent here. The barriers to entry into the United States market from a real estate investing perspective are so much lower than Australia. I can see a lot of people like that, a lot of international folks like that.

The message I have for the American folks is realize what’s in your backyard. Don’t be ignorant. I’m telling you this for a reason. Perspective is good. Listen to what I’m saying. Go out and educate yourself on what is in your backyard, what is in the state across from you, or in an affordable market where you can start buying and investing.

Ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore. I’ve said that earlier in the show. It’s really true that if you stop learning, you stop growing, and I think that’s what people get in there. Not just Americans. I’ve got Aussie mates back in my hometown, they’ve not left. They’re in that same blinkers on type of scenario. Not that that’s an issue, which is that if you want to understand the benefits of real estate investing, then get out of your own way sometimes and just start going out and educating yourself on what’s in your backyard.

Jason: What would be a good place to start with getting education towards this?

Reed: Well, sitting here right now talking about it, listening to your show. I still remember when I moved to the United States, I was going to real estate investment seminars made up in Aussie, and I remember being pitched to pay $10,000–$20,000 for a guru to help me teach everything. Then, when I got to the States, particularly in New York, the Big Apple, the firehose of information, it was all readily available at my fingertips. Websites, podcasts, books, meet-up events.

You don’t have to spend a lot of money, but at the end of the day, you do have to spend time. If you don’t want to spend the money investing in yourself or the time, then you’re never going to go anywhere. You got to understand that this is an investment in yourself.

So, I would start by listening to podcasts. They’re free. Picking up a couple of books that can start educating you on whatever niche you want to get involved with, with real estate. Maybe just financial education and literacy that you need to be sharper on.

Join a local meet-up group for real estate. I encourage everyone listening to the show, if you don’t have any experience, if you go to two meet-ups a month for the next six months, that’s 12 meet-ups. I bet your bottom dollar and I bet you $100 that they will know, or they would have created a circle around them, more knowledgeable than they were listening to the show today.

It’s about getting out there, being willing to pick-up a book, being willing to say, “Hey, it’s okay that I don’t know what this is about, but I’m willing to learn.” I’m an example of that. I’m self-taught, I went to university with structural engineering, and now I run a multi-million dollar investment firm.

You can change. The real advice is that we are in the digital age. It’s all at our fingertips. Go out, start investing yourself from an education perspective, and you will see change.

Jason: Reed, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. How can people get more information from you as to what you’re up to or get plugged into whatever you’ve got going on?

Reed: Simplest way, go to my website. It’s reedgoossens.com. I live in Los Angeles. If anyone wants to hit me up for a beer, coffee, or lunch, just shoot me an email at info@reedgoossens.com. You can check it out all there. Find the podcast, find the books, find the videos. It’s all there, so have fun.

Jason: All right. Hey, thanks for coming on the show, and like Reed said, start getting involved in investing. Just start, right? There’s this power in just getting started. Set that intention, start going to some meet-up groups. You can check out meetup.com. You can check out Facebook groups, there are all kinds of resources available, and maybe you’ll find your passion the way Reed has.

Reed, I appreciate you.

Reed: Thank you so much for having me on the show, Jason. I really appreciate it.

Jason: It’s been a pleasure.

All right, so if you are a property management entrepreneur and you’re wanting doors, then reach out. We’ve got some cool programs that we’re adding to our lineup of what we’re doing. We’re really excited about something new that we’re launching, the DoorGrow Referral Amplifier that Jay Berube and I are doing, so make sure you check that out.

He is an amazing entrepreneur, one of my clients that was able to close and acquire over 300 doors into this property management portfolio from ground zero in Florida in about two years. He did it largely through outbound, reach out to agents for referrals, and he systemized this. He’s now even got VAs helping do this for him. He runs his company remotely from another state now, and it’s still growing.

So, reach out and check us out if you’re interested in this. By the time this airs on iTunes, it will probably already be filled. We’ve only got 20 seats, so if you’re watching this live, then get in. We’ve already sold about half the seats already, and we haven’t even announced it publicly. I’m just throwing it out there now. Get in before we close out the remaining 10 seats. Bye everyone.

Download this Episode

Feb 11, 2020

Not tech-savvy? Afraid to use technology to meet elevated brand standards at scale? Are you willing to manage and centralize chaos by leveraging automation and mobile functionality for those maintaining and caring for your properties?

Today, I am talking to Tucker Cohen of Breezeway, which brings operations and service optimization software to the property management space. By combining deep-learning technology, robust property data, smart messaging, and mobile-first task management, Breezeway makes it easy for managers to deliver the best experience for guests, tenants, and owners.

You’ll Learn...

[03:05] Problems Solved: Breezeway helps property management business owners when short- or long-term tenants move out to determine condition of property.

[05:15] Breezeway Bio: Created by FlipKey founder and acquired by TripAdvisor. Breezeway uses 75+ years of industry experience to build the future of property care.

[07:00] Systemize business to be more effective and save time for brand standards and rising expectations in the market.

[10:23] Conferences and Companies: What does a conference need? Everything a business needs. Company growth and expansion doesn’t always make things easier.

[14:45] What are brand standards and rising expectations? People and perceptions are extensions of your brand. Trust and transparency meet standards and expectations.

[21:25] Dating Analogy: Am I the person that the person I want to attract into my life or into my business, would they be interested in me? Come down to their level or level up.

[23:05] Running a Business: If something isn’t working, it's your fault. Take ownership, don’t blame your team that is following your lead.

[27:20] Expectations tend to rise, but sometimes expectations are artificially wrong, unrealistic, unmanageable, and express entitlement.

[29:22] Situational Sayings: If nothing changes, then nothing changes. If you want dramatically different results, dramatic changes are required.

[30:59] Status Quo Challenge: Some people aren't ready for change. Ultimately, everyone moves toward an operations tool, like Breezeway.

[36:00] Platform Integrations: Breezeway strives to be a connected system, but wants to work with Rent Manager and others.

[38:35] Three-Legged Stool: Cleaning, inspection, and maintenance of property care and operations.

Tweetables

Everything looks shiny and pretty, but business is tough, being an entrepreneur is tough, and the inside of companies can be tough.

The main thing must stay the main thing in the business. Keeping focus is power.

Expectations tend to rise, but some expectations are unrealistic and unmanageable.

The sooner you can automate, the better. As you scale, you have that process in place.

Resources

Breezeway

Tucker Cohen’s Email

Tucker Cohen on Twitter

Tucker Cohen on LinkedIn

FlipKey

TripAdvisor

Todd Breen

Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink

DGS 116: Automated Income Verification in the Property Management Industry with Stephen Arifin 0

Transcript

DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.

Today, I am hanging out here with Tucker Cohen. Tucker, welcome to the show.

Tucker: Thanks a lot, Jason. That was fantastic. For some reason, I thought that was recorded. I didn’t know you did that a lot.

Jason: I just say it each time. Sometimes, I screw it up even though I wrote it.

Tucker: It’s perfect, you nailed it.

Jason: I'm reading it. I think I haven't memorized, I probably do, but I read it because even I get nervous doing my own show sometimes. Tucker, we're going to get into Breezeway and our topic today is brand standards and rising expectations in the market. Give us a little bit of background before we get into the topic at hand. Tell us a little bit about what is Breezeway and maybe we can dig in more into that as we move through the topic.

Tucker: Absolutely. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm glad that we're able to reconnect since Orlando, probably like a month ago now. I’m super excited to be here. It's interesting. The topics are largely in line with what we're up to. I doubt that's much of a coincidence, but what Breezeway aims to do is allow property managers, like the ones you're talking about, the ones who aren't afraid to adopt technology, go out on a limb, and do something first, to meet those elevated brand standards at scale.

The way we're doing that is through leveraging automation, through leveraging mobile functionality for folks in the field who are helping maintain and care for your properties. Without getting too much into it, I'd say that we're really in line with that brand standard piece you mentioned.

Jason: Cool. I want to touch on this before we could move on, but what problems does Breezeway really solve? Property management business owners are struggling with what? They would be really interested in having a conversation with you.

Tucker: I think there's a number of different ways to answer that with regards to the folks who I think are probably tuned in now. It's going to be more aligned along the lines of when someone moves out or when someone checks out of one of your properties, be it long-term or short-term, you don't necessarily know the condition that the property was in when they got there.

With Breezeway, we have a system of record for every single detail down to the serial number of your appliance when someone checked in and every item into a certain room or a certain part of the house that often goes unnoticed or you have an owner coming in to check-in, I think it’s just managing the chaos would probably be the best way to describe what we're helping folks with.

Jason: Now, my initial gut reaction hearing this is that sounds like a lot of work, of data entry and getting all these things, just to go around to each unit and feed all this stuff in. How do you deal with that objection that people are probably, I'm sure it's come up. That sounds like a lot of time.

Tucker: Totally. With any of this type of stuff, you get what you put into it. If you're willing to go through the due diligence upfront, make sure that everything is set up right, and you have all your property information in the system, then it pays dividends down the line where you don't have to go digging through a Google Drive with hundreds of different files about your serial number on the microwave, that property number 150. That stuff is all there anyway. The only difference is that it's just buried somewhere, whether it's an email thread, a text chain with a cleaner, an inspector at your property, or a maintenance guy. You have most of this information anyway. What we're doing is we're centralizing everything in there under one hood.

Jason: Got it. Now I'm going to read a little bit of that bio that we received when getting ready for the show because I think it makes you guys sound pretty credible and I want you guys to look really good. Breezeway brings operations and service optimization software to the property management space, combining deep-learning technology, robust property data, smart messaging, and mobile-first task management.

We make it easy for managers to deliver the best experience of guests, tenants, and owners. We are serving a global customer base across a broad set of verticals, including short-term vacation managers, residential property managers, cleaning and maintenance providers, hospitality operators. This was created by the founder of FlipKey which was acquired by TripAdvisor. The Breezeway team is using 75-plus years of industry experience to build the future of property care.

What you're working on is you are directly with the sales team. You're building the sales team inside that. This says, “Having skilled companies from series A to unicorn status in the past.” What does that mean? Explain that to me.

Tucker: That's, of course, like privately-held software company jargon right there, but basically, what that means is a company that's pre-Series A, like us here at Breezeway, means we've raised a very small round of money. In the future, we may raise a Series A, which is more of an initial investment, proper venture capital raise, and then all the way up to unicorn status, which is commonly referred to in Silicon Valley as a billion-dollar valuation for the company.

Jason: Okay. Let's get into the top of your hand. Brand standards and rising expectations in the market. This sounds like you guys are primed for growth. It sounds like you guys have a really cool technology in place that's going to do some stuff for property managers to help them systemize their business.

I think you could answer my question better in saying that it's going to help them save time in the long run, right? It’s the bottom of the line. There's some time that it takes to get this stuff set up initially, but it's going to save you the hassle of all this time in the long run. Overall, it's not costing you time.

Tucker: Yeah, you got it.

Jason: There you go.

Tucker: Most folks are already doing a lot of this stuff anyway.

Jason: They're just doing it poorly.

Tucker: Again, you said it, not me.

Jason: Most things in most businesses. I get to see on the inside of hundreds of companies and everything's shiny on the outside. It could be shinier. We can help you with that, by the way, property managers. It could be shinier on the outside, but the challenges on the inside, that's like the whited sepulcher they talked about in the Bible like, “How's everything going?” “Oh, it's great,” but they're drowning. That's businesses on Instagram. Everything looks pretty and is great but really business is tough, being an entrepreneur is tough, and the inside of companies can be tough.

A smart entrepreneur I’d spoken with today on a sales call said, “What's your internal organization like? How do you run your own business?” I just started telling him because us, entrepreneurs, we know what it's like to run a company. It feels like herding cats sometimes, it feels like chaos, wrapping some constraints around that and moving the business forward towards scaling towards growth takes work. You help manage some of the herding of the cats information-wise.

Tucker: There you go. Absolutely. To that point, it's such an interesting timing. I actually just started listening to this other podcast called Under The Waterline. Have you heard of that one?

Jason: No, but Under The Waterline? Like drowning?

Tucker: It's pretty straightforward, but all about what you're saying. Everybody tells the story. When a company goes well, all you hear is the above the waterline, which is clean, beautiful, and nothing ever went wrong. I'm drawing a blank on the host. I only listened to a couple of episodes far, worth checking out.

He digs and he interviews with entrepreneurs, and talks about “Tell me the honest take. What happened here? How did you do this? Was it good? Was it bad? Was it ugly?” really digging in on that under the waterline grit that it takes to successfully build a company like you're talking about.

Jason: Yeah. I've made all kinds of mistakes. I jokingly tell people that DoorGrow has been built on thousands of failures, I mean really. I did a conference back in November and some of the listeners were probably at this conference. We had 150 attendees. This was our inaugural event. It was phenomenal. We had amazing food. We had great speakers.

Here's the dirty secret about doing that conference. People were like, “Why aren't you doing it again this year?” I thought it'd be this great thing, our business is healthy, we're doing about $1 million in revenue, we've had 300% growth, then like, “Let's do a conference this year.”

Tucker: Why not?

Jason: The thing about starting a conference, property managers can compare this to—if they're in residential going into commercial, or deciding to start in a new market, deciding to do associations, or whatever it might be—some expansion and they think this will be easy. There’ll be just this other thing. This other thing was like starting a whole new company because what does a conference need? Everything a business needs: sales, marketing, branding positioning, lots and lots of organization, everything that a business needs. It was like starting another company.

Guess how much growth we had the year that we were doing a conference? No growth. We had no growth for a year. We were healthy-ish but we weren't growing ironically. Our company is called DoorGrow, but it was because we were distracted because everything had to go towards this conference. Once you decide to do a conference, you're all in. You're on the hook with the hotel, you've got vendors, people sold tickets, there's no going back.

There are lots of companies that have gone bankrupt just for doing a conference. I was like, “How was that possible? No.” We're [...] than that. Not me, no. That's every business owner starting company. “I'll be better than all those other property management businesses. They all suck but that won't be me.” I hear that all the time. “I'm starting a property management business because all the other companies in my market suck.” I hear that every week and they won't be that one.

Tucker: What you're talking about, too, Jason is just like spending your time efficiently and effectively. If you are a small shop, you can't really afford to necessarily make mistakes like that with where you're allocating your time. In your case, it was a conference that did it. You did it, you pulled it off but someone who, like you're saying—

Jason: Yeah, everybody loved it, everyone's like, “It was so great,” and I didn't love it. It was super stressful because I'm somewhat introverted. I'm an ambivert but that situation was incredibly uncomfortable for me because it was just so much pressure. But it went off well, everybody had great feedback but it cost me $2 million in opportunity cost easily.

Tucker: No ROI there.

Jason: I could do a conference that cost tons of money, broke even sort of thing. The conference probably cost $120,000 just to throw because we did everything great but the opportunity cost, the fact that my team were all focused on it, and everything else instead of on the main thing. I think as entrepreneurs, we need to remember in our business, the main thing is the main thing. If your business needs sales and revenue, then that's what you need to focus on, otherwise, you end up with a sales slump and then you're scrambling.

The main thing has to stay the main thing in the business. That was a huge lesson that I got from that. I got to make sure the main thing always stays the main thing. Entrepreneurs, we’re always tempted by opportunity and there's always a distraction, there are always new options, opportunity, and distraction, whether it's expanding into a new market as a property manager or something. Keeping focused is power.

Tell me what are brand standards? Rising expectations? Let's get into this.

Tucker: I have a hot take on brand standards. I think it's a pretty lukewarm take, I think it's pretty straightforward, but it’s really like, “This is what your expectation is.” There's this sociological theory, which is that there are three versions of you. There's you as you see yourself, there's you as other people see you, and there's a version of you that you think other people see as you. It's your projection of what people's perception is. It's one thing from a personal standpoint, but from a business standpoint, you actually can control that in a lot of ways.

That's what we're talking about with brand standards. You have expectations as an entrepreneur, as the CEO of your own company, you expect things to be done a certain way. How do you make sure that the people who you're trusting to impact your business, whether it's someone taking photos of your property for a posting, for listing, cleaning your property, or inspecting your property before someone checks in or moves in? Those people are extensions of your brand. You're effectively trusting them to meet those standards. A lot of times, you don't necessarily have insight into that but maybe that was a hot take.

Jason: Yeah. I'll add to that. Branding is one of the main things that we have property management businesses with. I consider myself a branding expert. This is something that I dealt with in helping clean up the branding for hundreds of property management companies. We've helped some vendors even recently.

We helped clean up Virtually Incredible’s branding. We helped clean up their new logo. It was designed by my team. I had some great conversation with Todd Breen on helping him focus on the main gateway that was feeding his business and recognize that other things were back-end products that came later in the sales cycle, instead of putting out the message that he did everything, which one feeds the business. I think property managers need to recognize that, too.

Property management is often the front-end gateway product even if they also do real estate. It works more effectively usually that way. I think they need to focus on that, but a lot of property management businesses in the branding are real estate companies, which scares off the people that want a specialist. They want a specialist that manage their biggest investment ever. I've helped double some property management businesses’ real estate revenue commissions by eliminating real estate from their branding, ironically, because once the property management side is healthy, it's what's feeding them the majority of the revenue that’s coming into that.

It goes back again to focus. We can tie this back in, but it goes back again to focus that in order to deal with people's expectations and in order to manage the perception of your business, I think the key is that you need to align it towards what starts the process, not towards everything that you do.

I'm dating now. Imagine that you're in the process of dating, you're going out, and you just vomit everything about yourself and what you do. You can't do that. You got to start with where's their interest level at. Start in that space first. “Oh, you're into music? Me too.” You have to start somewhere. There has to be a beginning.

The same thing with our businesses, there has to be a beginning because you [...] what you're doing. You're trying to create a relationship and you can parallel this to dating, but you're not going to show up and try to make out with them on the front porch as soon as you meet them. That's what people try to do in sales a lot of times. They just vomit everything right on their lap, they're in a state of overwhelm, and they're like, “Okay, that's a bit much, buddy.”

I think also with branding, transparency is so huge. You said something that I felt anxious just hearing you talk about the expectations with yourself, with others, and then what you think others are perceiving. That can be such a big head game that people get caught up in. They’re like, “Oh, my gosh, how are people perceiving me? Am I okay? Do they like me? Am I being right for them? Am I doing this?”

Ultimately, as we get older, we learn to just not give an F. You don't care as much because you become more confident, you love yourself, you like yourself. When your business is confident, when you're confident in your business, and you're confident your business can deliver, you come from a greater space in which you can be the prize that the client is trying to get instead of thinking that they're the prize.

This is called prizing in sales. I think it happens when you’re transparent because transparency creates safety, it creates trust, you don't have to try and be something. The problem is, a lot of times, the brand is not in alignment with what's on the back end, what's on the inside. It's not in alignment with the business owner.

Tucker: That brings up two great points. One is you say in your personal life, you grow up and you're just like, “Yeah, I don't really care. This is who I am, take it or leave it.” What we're talking about here, unfortunately, is a place where we don't have that luxury. We're talking about the rising expectations that are taking place across every element of property management and then the brand standards.

Jason: Due to increases in technology. People have iPhones. If they have iPhones, they expect more.

Tucker: It's one thing to say, “Yeah, this is who I am, take it or leave it,” but if it's your business, you say that, and you provide a bad experience, that's where I think branding really comes down to is the experience that your client ends up having when they engage with you, be it at the very beginning of your relationship or throughout the lion's share of it all the way to the end.

Jason: Yeah. Let's go back to the dating analogy. If I'm overweight, I'm not getting my hair cut, I'm not brushing my teeth, and I just grow my beard down to my ankles, and I just say, “Screw everybody else, this is how I am. Take it or leave it.” That's cool, I will only attract people that are interested in that. That might not be what I'm interested in.

Here's the thing. I love this question, “Am I the person—that the person I want to match with, or attract into my life, or into my business—they would be interested in? Am I at that level? If not, I even need to lower my expectations or I need to make some changes.”

Tucker: Right, either come down to their level or you level up. That's it.

Jason: Right. Either way, I need to get in touch with reality. I need to make some changes. A great question that I've had several coaches I've seen throw out or coaches I've worked with ask is, “Who do I have to become in order to be that person? Who do I have to become? What would it take? Who do you, as a property management business owner, have to become in order to have the type of business that you want?” Here's the thing. One of my coaches said, “If you don't have the business yet that you dream of, you're not yet the person that can run it yet.

Tucker: That's meta.

Jason: That's meta. Right, that's really simple. If you don't have the business that you dream of, you feel like it's not right, and you're frustrated with your team, you're not the person yet that can create that. But as entrepreneurs, it's so easy for us to externalize all of that. I get many people come to me and they want to focus on their website, they want to focus on lead gen, they want to blame their team. Everything is external.

The ironic thing that I found is if I can get them to focus on themselves, get clarity on who they are, what really makes them feel alive and in momentum as entrepreneur, they get really clear on their purpose, then we align the brand, the business, everything around that, everything changes. The website's going to end up changing, their messaging is going to end up changing, their sales process changes. They fire some of their team members. Their team members change.

Everything changes in a business once the business owner, the entrepreneur at the helm who is the sun at the center of the solar system changes. Everything has to change by default. But what's incredibly costly, time crazy, and painful is the folks trying to change everything externally without changing yourself which is really creating all that.

Tucker: Do you know Jocko Willink, the ex-Navy SEAL?

Jason: Yeah, he's written some good books.

Tucker: He's got the book Extreme Ownership. That’s his whole thing, it’s extreme ownership. If something's not working out, it's your fault. You got to take some ownership, it’s not the team's fault. The team is following your lead. You're the leader.

Jason: I'll share an example. I was talking with somebody and they were complaining about all these different people that had come into their life. They were complaining about this guy, that guy, and this. I said, “Hey, there's one common denominator among all of this. There's one commonality.” Because they were like, “I don't know [...]. All these people are so different.” I said, “There's one thing in common. You. That’s the one thing in common.”

The most dangerous thing in the world—property managers know this if they've been in the business a while—one of the biggest red flags for property manager is if somebody comes to them and says with an existing manager or they just fired their last manager and they're complaining about their previous managers. “Oh, this company was terrible.”

The dumb property manager would listen to all of that and they would say, “Oh, yeah, they're terrible. We'll be way better.” The correct property manager would say, “Okay, maybe it's this person so I better ask some really good questions before I take them on because I might be the next company that's on their [...] list that's getting attacked on online reviews and negative. I don't want to be that.”

That's a red flag. Another red flag is if somebody's referring a client to you. We can't really help them. I teach my clients to do that, to refer the clients they don't like to somebody else. I'm sharing this transparently, everybody. If somebody's referring a client to you, it could mean that they're a terrible client. Sometimes, though, it may just mean that they’re not a fit. One man's junk is another man's treasure when it comes to property management. Some people can deal with that difficult investor and others can't. Some difficult investors can exchange the good ones just by setting a real strong fence and a boundary that some managers aren't capable of doing. That's all they wanted in the beginning, they just wanted safety. That's another advantage you can create.

Tucker: The takeaway there, do your homework always. Larry David had a good episode on that. Don't get foisted.

Jason: Foisted? I don’t know that term.

Tucker: I'll send you a link. Curb Your Enthusiasm episode.

Jason: All right. I’ll avoid getting foisted after I launch this episode.

Tucker: Tough referral.

Jason: Perfect. Expectations do tend to rise but sometimes, expectations are artificially wrong. I saw a post from one of my buddies who's in the restaurant industry today. This girl wrote this note on a receipt saying, “I'm not giving you a tip because I'm only a few days away from my 21st birthday and you wouldn't allow me to have alcohol.” No tip for their whole party, from the whole party of food.

This just shows the entitlement that exists in some people. That's ridiculous. Sometimes some people's expectations are unrealistic. I don't think it's too much for somebody to provide good service but to break the law for somebody so that they can have alcohol because, “Hey, my birthday is only a few days away,” come on.

Tucker: That's an unrealistic expectation at its finest.

Jason: As long as it's in the past. Yes. Some expectations are not manageable and it's not possible for us to raise to that level of their expectation because it's without foundation, it's a pie in the sky, it's a pipe dream, it's not realistic. Now I think the challenge with property managers is there's some things that they think, “This is a status quo, this is how we’ve done it. This is how it is. It's just hard this way.”

They think everything else is pie in the sky or fluffy and not possible. They exclude themselves from making those changes. It’s like the guy that's like, “Oh, all girls are just difficult. I'm just going to sit on my couch and eat Cheetos all day. They only want a rich guy or they only want whatever. They just choose out.” In business is the same thing, we can just choose out.

Tucker: An all-encompassing saying for every situation you can think of is if nothing changes, then nothing changes.

Jason: Right. I've also heard it said if you want dramatically different results or if you want dramatic change, it requires dramatic change.

Tucker: There you go, case in point. Then, of course, another bit of jargon of rising tide lifts all ships. That’s it.

Jason: I think I touched on that one on this show before of rising tide can raise all ships if the tide is already high enough, but I think the challenge in property management is that the tide is all the way down in some areas. It's low. There are some property management businesses with holes in them like you wouldn't believe and they're sitting on gravel or sand. They're there.

A rising tide is going to sink some ships in this industry, no question, and they need to sink because it's going to help the entire industry. There are property owners businesses that should not be in business or they’re going to have them patch up some holes and make things work better.

Tucker: I think to that point, Jason, it's really the ones who are going to sit back and say, “This is the way we've always done it or this is status quo,” because frankly, at the end of the day, the customer has all the power. They're the ones that can make or break your business with one bad review at the end of the day. [...] natural selection, I think. You’re right.

Jason: Let's apply this to Breezeway. Breezeway, what are some of the challenges that you deal with in selling your services to property managers? Some of the things that you'll typically hear from them.

Tucker: That's a really straightforward one, is that status quo like, “This is where we've always done it.” It's not that big of a headache for us now. We don't think we would use it that much, or what we talked about before, it might be too much work upfront. It's okay. Some people aren't ready for change but we stand by the fact that ultimately, everyone will move towards an operations tool like Breezeway, if not Breezeway.

In most cases, when people say no, they come back. We believe that's going to continue to happen as this tide continues to rise and the expectations continue to rise. If you don't have high brand standards, you don't get to be a brand any more because (like you said) the ship sinks. If you can't meet the customers expectations, you're probably not going to have any customers for much longer, so the status quo.

Like we said, this isn't stuff that people aren't doing already in a lot of cases. They're just running around and managing chaos in order to effectively do it. What Breezeway allows them to do is both automate as well as ensure that it's actually happening in a way that they hope it will, meeting those brand standards.

Jason: You've got customers, right?

Tucker: Yeah, we have some.

Jason: Okay, good, me too. Can you share an example, a case study, or maybe even some typical situation that you've seen where they've gone from not doing it, struggling, not using Breezeway, to implementing your services, and what results they've been able to achieve?

Tucker: Without naming any specific clients, another big piece of pushback that we receive is, “I don't know if my service providers will actually use this,” which is fair, generally considering the fact that service providers aren't tech-savvy, what have you. But one of our clients down south were able to effectively roll this out to their service network. Each one of those service providers now uses our app to download all of their checklists offline.

Before, there was no good way for them to do that until they can download the apps all offline. They had pulled them and said, “Hey, would you want to go back to the old way?” which was email, paper and pen, checklist, they’re coming into the office, “Hey, here's your assignment for the day,” or emailing them out to some of the further ones, then they had to submit them all back manually with all the photos attached, and they're like, “Absolutely not. Of course, why would I ever want to go back to the old way?”

A bit of an anecdotal story there about some of those challenges that we're seeing at the onset of conversations all being overcome and Breezeway being in a spot where they know no other way now.

Jason: There are a lot of tools that a lot of property managers probably shouldn't even touch until they’re maybe about 50 to 100 units, they can't even entertain the idea. They don't have cash flow, they're not ready to use a service, they're a solopreneur maybe, at what stage do you feel like Breezeway can be implemented in a business? Where do they need to be, roughly, in terms of door count, size, who do you guys generally work with?

Tucker: Good question. It is on a case-by-case basis to some extent because some entrepreneurs, like you're saying, have higher bandwidth for stress and they can deal with some of those chaotic nuances that go into managing a higher door count as opposed to someone like me who I like to ensure as much automation as possible so I don't let things slip through the cracks in the first place.

The sooner I can automate, the better. Then as I scale, I have that process in place. Typical door count, from a short-term perspective, we’ll work with folks in the 50 to 100 range but all the way down to 5 doors too. Again, [...] pay. They like to just automate as much as possible. In the longer-term world, we're talking about the same, range only on the higher scale. So, 50 all the way up to 500 and 1000 doors.

Jason: Okay. They can get started with you guys at any point. You guys don't have like 100-door minimum, 200-door minimum, or anything like this?

Tucker: No.

Jason: Okay.

Tucker: We're not turning people away just yet, Jason.

Jason: Okay. I do but I'm picky. I'm just kidding. Tucker, this is really cool, the future sounds like technology. Does Breezeway integrate with any platforms? There are so many different tools in property management, I think a lot of people listening to my show nowadays are like, “Oh, gosh, Jason just shared another stupid tool that I'm going to have to figure out how to plug into my business that I really want,” and they've got this to-do list of tools they want to add and implement. How difficult is it to get started with Breezeway and is there any concern about connection, integration, or any of this thing that is really significant?

Tucker: I understand why people get concerned with this type of thing. Of course, whenever you're introducing new technology, there's always a concern, especially because folks (like you said) have been burned in the past like, “Oh, another one of these things I have to do.” But at Breezeway, we really aim to be a connected system. From a long-term standpoint, we're working with the folks of the likes of Rent Manager and other folks like them.

Then short-term, all the 20-plus of the biggest PMS systems out there. But our goal by the end of this year and the coming year 2020, we're going to just be one of the most connected systems out there, whether it's your remote locks of the world all the way to your streamlines and your rent managers of the world as well.

Jason: Got it. People listening might get confused and think, “Is Breezeway a complementary tool to maintenance coordination tools or is it a replacement for these type of tools, where we have, maybe EZ Repair Hotline, Property Meld, and Latchel, these services?”

Tucker: Wow, that's a loaded question, Jason. I knew you’re going to come at me with that.

Jason: It’s an obvious question.

Tucker: It is an obvious question.

Jason: I’m just asking what I know my clients are going to be like, “What is this? How does it fit in the overall mix?”

Tucker: It's true. Listen, like I was saying before, we want to play nicely with anybody who's out there so we're not going to go ahead and say that we’re a direct competitor for these folks. The other thing is we do a handful of the same stuff. You'll be hard-pressed to be using one of them for maintenance, using Breezeway for cleaning and inspections, and not using us for maintenance.

There's a three-legged stool with regards to where Breezeway plays in the operations world and our aim is to supplement the PMS regardless of which one it is, we want to integrate with them. Then if they're using something else for maintenance, that's fine too.

Jason: Explain the three legs, what are they just for people that are a little bit lost.

Tucker: Yeah, sorry. I'm a big analogy guy.

Jason: Take the analogy into reality.

Tucker: Here’s the reality, you have your cleaning, inspection, and your maintenance. Those are the three legs we believe of property care and operations.

Jason: Got it. What other frequently asked questions do people have when they're approaching you for interest in Breezeway or just any other questions that we haven't covered?

Tucker: I don't know, it runs the gamut. We're creating a new category to speak of, property operation which is really something that people haven't heard of. We're excited about it. The main question is probably what is property operations. It's just what I'm talking about. It's really thinking about not just managing a property but actually caring for it and taking into consideration preventative maintenance and safety measures. All that stuff rolled into one in a way that you can do it as hands-off as possible.

Jason: Perfect. Okay. Tucker, I think we’ve talked about brand standards, we’ve talked about rising expectations in the industry, we've talked about Breezeway. How can people get in touch with Breezeway? How can they find out more if they want to get in touch and they're interested?

Tucker: We are at www.breezeway.io. If you would like to check out our integrations page, it's very simple /integrations. If you would like to meet with me, you can send me an email, tucker@breezeway.io, @CorpoTuck on Twitter, on Linkedin, Tucker F. C. I know a lot of folks are on Facebook, I'm thinking about getting on there, but that's about it. Happy to fill any questions now, it looks like we're getting some coming in on the chat.

Jason: We can touch on that. Is this available for homeowners or just landlords and property managers?

Tucker: Yeah. Listen, right now, it is primarily for landlords and property managers, but we do see a world where a longer term this will be used by homeowners and the connected home Internet of Things world of the future that we see everything sliding towards.

Jason: Someday, Breezeway may know whether my Roomba has done its job or not.

Tucker: Exactly. Your Roomba would be automatically scheduled by Breezeway.

Jason: All right. Tucker, it’s been great having you on. Everybody check out, it’s breezeway.io. I appreciate you coming on the DoorGrow Show.

Tucker: Yeah. Thanks so much, Jason. This is great. Glad we made it happen.

Jason: All right, I'll let you go. All right, there you have it, check out breezeway.io. I'm always curious to hear your feedback on this so make sure you guys are inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group. This is our community for all those DoorGrow Hackers out there, property management, business owners, entrepreneurs. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com and that will take you to the Facebook group. Answer all the questions and we'll let you in if you're a property management entrepreneur. Get inside that group.

As always, I'd love to hear feedback on what you think about different tools, different things that you're using, and ask questions to other people inside the Facebook group. We’ll give you some free gifts when you join that group, including a bible of fees that you can tack on your property management business. We have a list of really cool tools and vendors in there. You will get an email drip if you provided your email when you join the group. We will be giving you gifts to help you grow your property management business.

Eventually, you'll be able to learn a little bit more about what we do at DoorGrow. Make sure you get inside that group if you're not in our community. There are amazing people in there, they're helpful, and they align with my vision of creating collaboration over competition. That's what this industry needs right now. Until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.

Download this Episode

Feb 4, 2020

Do you need a place to rent? But you can’t complete or submit your application because you don’t have the required information and documentation for the property manager? This is a common and frustrating problem.

Today, I am talking to Stephen Arifin of The Closing Docs, which offers automated income verification in the property management industry. The Closing Docs is a modern way to help applicants prove their net income, which is the best indicator of their ability to pay rent. The Closing Docs provides property managers with income information needed to make a decision that can be defended.

You’ll Learn...

[01:48] Early Entrepreneurship Experience: Stephen started solving problems using technology to make money from the time he was in kindergarten through college.

[02:50] First Job Out of School: Full-stack Web developer at Microsoft, where a small team taught Stephen the fundamentals of how to build a Web application from scratch.

[03:08] Missing Entrepreneurial Spirit: Stephen leaves Microsoft to pursue broken industries in need of technological innovation to save time and money.

[03:31] Mortgage Lenders: The Closing Docs was founded to fill in the gaps of loan application processes by automating income verification.

[05:21] How it Works: The Closing Docs receives permission from applicant to prove their net income, the money that goes into their account to pay their rent.

[07:00] The Closing Docs has developed integrations with property management software, including Buildium, AppFolio, On-Site, and Yardi.

[12:18] Why switch to The Closing Docs and not follow the status quo? Information collected directly from banks is better and trustworthy for an approval recommendation.

[13:38] Operational Cost Savings: People and software are expensive, so what can property managers/applicants expect to pay for The Closing Docs? $10 per screening.

Tweetables

Broken Industries: Paper-and-pencil processes are ripe for technological innovation.

Net income is the best indicator of applicant’s ability to pay rent.

The Closing Docs doesn’t ask or expect clients to change their software.

The Closing Docs’s standardized information helps people close more deals faster.

Resources

The Closing Docs

Automated Income Verification Process: How It Works

Stephen Arifin's Email

The Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA)