What do most skiers and snowboarders dream about? Owning mountain property. But most of them don’t have the necessary wealth or money to purchase a second home, especially in expensive real estate markets.
Today, I am talking to Rob Stephens of Avalara MyLodgeTax. As a Denver resident and lifelong skier, Rob was fortunate enough to buy a three-bedroom condo in Vail about 20 years ago. But even then, it took Rob, his wife, and wife's brother-in-law to make the dream a reality.
[02:57] Short-term Rental Market Options:
[03:48] Complex Tasks: Apply technology and manage challenges for property owners, managers, and operators. Know what taxes to charge, collect, file, and pay to agencies.
[05:50] Lack of Awareness: Property owners trying to manage their short-term rentals have never dealt with these types of transactional taxes.
[06:20] It’s not rocket science, but multiple layers of government are involved. State and local tax rates and requirements are specific to rental property location and address.
[07:10] Avalara MyLodgeTax: Online hosted, Cloud service similar to TurboTax but for short-term rentals with vacation, occupancy, resort, and other taxes.
[09:27] Penalties to Avoid: Long-term, multifamily operators getting into short-term rental space need to understand rules and risks involved.
[11:40] One less thing to worry about. Partnerships with property management companies is when Avalara handles everything occupancy tax related.
[13:02] Common Questions and Concerns: Shortcuts and consolidation for creating awareness and understanding the mechanics of administrative work.
Increasing scrutiny and regulation on the short-term rental space, makes for more paperwork and forms to be filed.
Lack of Awareness: Property owners managing their short-term rentals have never dealt with some types of transactional taxes.
Short-term rentals involve multiple layers of government. State and local tax rates and requirements are specific to rental property address.
Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker.
DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.
At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show.
My guest today is Rob Stephens and his company is Avalara MyLodgeTax. Rob, before we get into talking about your business, I’d love to hear your background of how you're connected maybe to the real estate or property management industry. Maybe you could share with us just a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey just to qualify yourself to our listeners.
Rob: Sure, happy to. Thanks for having me. I love the intro, good stuff. My story, I live in Denver, Colorado, lifelong skier like a lot of us, lifelong skiers here in Colorado. One of our aspirations is to have a mountain property. As a relatively young professional, this is about 20 years ago, was fortunate enough to be able to purchase a three-bedroom condo in Vail, Colorado with my wife's brother-in-law. The three of us went in together.
At that point in time in my life, we wanted a second home in Vail, great skiing, be up in the mountains more, but part of that is when you make that financial investment—Vail is a very expensive real estate market—when we purchased it, we really needed income on that property to make the economics work. We certainly didn't have the wealth or money sitting around just to have a second home for our own personal use when we wanted it. We really needed to generate income.
This was in the short-term rental market. Back in the day, this is the late 90s, you really hire a local property manager or real estate agent that would get you bookings. At the time, somebody told us about a little website called Vrbo, it was pretty new back then. We tossed it on what's now Vrbo. It was frankly really amazing to see the bookings and we were immediately connected to travelers really across the globe. Through this one subscription would cost us about $120 a year, we're able to keep our property pretty booked and you're talking $30,000, $40,000 a year in rent.
Doing that, and I'm sure your audience will appreciate this, we were pretty clueless doing the rent-by-owner thing, there are all these other tasks to go along with it. You have to interact with guests, book guests, collect money, maybe have a rental agreement, you have to have on the site service, cleaning services.
My background is I’m a CPA, accounting and finance background, worked for some of the big accounting firms. But even as a CPA at the time, we just stumbled across the requirement to collect, remit sales, and occupancy taxes.
It was really through that experience, one being successfully doing this on the internet, managed my own property, and then coming across the complexity of managing these taxes even from my own little rental in Vail, we realized this is a powerful model. We think this online short-term rental, these sites have a lot of opportunities, but this tax is going to be a stumbling point.
A few years down the road, we started a company to really solve that problem for people. Our model was to apply technology and manage all these complexities for our customers, which would be registering with the different agencies, knowing what taxes to charge, and then once you know what taxes to charge and collect taxes, then automating the monthly, quarterly filing and payment of those taxes to the different agencies. Just to be clear, this is like a hotel occupancy tax, the same taxes that hotels pay to apply to short-term rentals.
That was our inspiration. We got started and we're able to form some partnerships originally with Vrbo and some of the other larger operators at the time, but the industry has certainly grown. Now you've got Airbnb, which I think really a ubiquitous household name, but the short-term rental industry, it's just everywhere now. We've been fortunate to be a little part of that on the back-end with our tax service, but about 4½ years ago, we sold our company to Avalara.
Now we're part of the Avalara family, but our whole mandate in life, Jason, is to really support, whether that's an owner, property manager, or a large operator like Expedia or Airbnb, help all these taxes, apply technology to make all these taxes simple and keep that back-office function as simple as possible.
Jason: Got it. In doing all of this, what are some of the complexities, some of the challenges that people are dealing with that have rental properties? Why is this a service that they might need?
Rob: I think there's a lot of confusion in this arena. I think in the smaller segments of the market, if you think about property owners trying to manage this themselves, they've just never dealt with these types of transactional taxes before. If you mentioned tax to a property owner, they're thinking income tax. There's just a great lack of awareness and the complexity comes in. This isn't necessarily rocket science, but wherever you're renting, like for my property in Vail, I have to deal with the state of Colorado, the Colorado Department of Revenue for sales tax and then the town of Vail has their own local room tax or lodging tax, so that's very common.
There are multiple layers of government involved, these are state and local taxes, and it's all specific to the rental property address. If you’re a manager and you have a portfolio, depending on how dispersed you are, each city, town, or county, and certainly, state, has their own tax rates and requirements. There are different forms and it can vary by city. That's the complexity. It's highly localized and each location has their own set of requirements.
Jason: Now, your service can cover any city anywhere in the US?
Rob: Yeah. We cover every location in the US. We don't do anything international yet, but that means we tell people the exact tax rate for all the properties they're managing or even if it's just one property, we register them. It's very common in this environment, you have to get a business license, short-term rental permit, or rental permits. There's increasing scrutiny and regulation on the short-term rental space so there are more paperwork and form.
We manage and do all that on behalf of our customers. Then on the back-end, these taxes need to be collected on all short-term transactions. Your software platform automates the monthly filing and paying of the taxes. I sometimes compare it to TurboTax. It’s kind of an online hosted in the cloud service where you can log in, put in your data, and the technology does the heavy lifting and calculation of filing. We're similar, just a different type of taxes with these hotel taxes.
Jason: Got it. What are some of the filings that have to occur that the typical homeowner would probably not be thinking about?
Rob: Again, the typical homeowner (like I said) thinks of these taxes in the context of income taxes. I'll go back to my Vail property as an example. Every quarter, I have to file a Colorado sales tax return with the state. I have to file—this is where it gets confusing—a Vail special marketing district return which is also paid to the state even though it's a Vail tax. Then there's a Vail sales tax that's paid directly to the town of Vail.
For my little example in Vail, I've got three different filings to two different agencies every quarter. That's pretty common. If you're in Florida, it's going to be a state sales tax filing and a county tourist tax filing. If you're in Texas, it's going to be a state hotel tax filing and then a city or county hotel tax filing based on your location. It’s multiple filings, it's always a sales tax or lodging tax, a very specific tax to providing accommodations.
Jason: If somebody's listening that has a property like this and they're like I haven't really been paying too much attention, I probably don't need to, what penalties could be coming down the line that they're just not aware of?
Rob: One of the things we're seeing is in the multifamily space. We're seeing a lot of operators that typically are in the residential long-term rental market, that are being pulled in at the short-term rental market because I think it's become so popular, it's become easy on these big platforms like Vrbo and Airbnb. The rent, the nightly or weekly rent can be very compelling, depending on your location of property relative to what you can do on a long-term lease. That's a huge trend we're seeing in the space is typical long-term or multifamily operators getting in the short-term space.
One of the issues for those folks is that now they’re doing short-term rentals, the short-term nature of their rental is what triggers the requirement to deal with all these taxes. To your point, there's a risk there. Certainly, the very larger multifamily operators are very sensitive to it. They want to have all that covered before they engage in short-term rentals. For smaller operators, I think sometimes they'll get it going and then figure out as they're doing it, seeing if a short-term model is going to work for them.
Again, there's increasing scrutiny on short-term rental operators, but the risk is that if you're audited or found not to be paying the tax, you can be assessed, not only back tax, which you would have typically just collected from your guest or renter—they're very accustomed to paying it—but then you've got penalties and interest on top of that. It's certainly something that can add up. We do see those cases and we do help people that are in that situation where they've got a back tax liability to figure that out. The penalties can be pretty significant. Tax, probably like everything in life, is better to do it proactively versus reactively.
We certainly encourage our customers and people we interact with to try to get out in front of it, make sure you understand the rules, are registered, and collecting the taxes, so you don't have that liability jump up and bite you as you're trying to manage your business.
Jason: For property managers that are listening to the show, they have investors as clients. Some of them may have short-term rentals. Do you typically work with property management companies and how might that work for those that listen?
Rob: We work with hundreds and hundreds of property managers across the US in the short-term rental space. We actually do work, like I said, in the multifamily space. We're seeing a lot of those operators and we work with companies that often have largely been in the long-term rental space, they're getting in the short-term rental space. Our largest segment is still the rent-by-owner or the Airbnb host crowd but we certainly work with a lot of managers and we're a solution for them. Everything tax, occupancy-tax related, our model is to really handle that from soup-to-nuts, A-Z, like I said, registration rates.
I think our property manager partners really value us as a way to take everything occupancy-tax related which includes licensing and registration, to hand that over to a trusted partner (which is us), and just make sure everything's done correctly, accurately, on time. It's just one less thing they have to deal with.
Jason: Perfect. What are the typical questions that a property manager or a homeowner listening to this would be curious about knowing about your service?
Rob: Good question. There are two different buckets. In the homeowner space, there's often generally just a lack of awareness of what they even need to do. It's more of a conversation about, “Oh yeah, if you are renting in Vail, here's what you need to do.” When owners understand that—and they often are very surprised about these requirements—they're often eager to outsource. Our service is $20 a month for that single user. Not to be cavalier, but we'd say it's a very affordable way, just to make sure you know the taxes are all getting paid on the right form, to the right agency, on the right date.
For the rent-by-owner crowd or host, they're just generally not aware. For the manager, generally there is awareness. The first question a manager would ask us if they're new to the space would be “Hey, do I have to file this for each of the properties I'm managing in our portfolio? How does that work?” Generally, for managers, we can aggregate their portfolio onto one set of filings. We can really do it much more efficiently.
There are some locations that require property level filings, but usually for managers, we can do things very efficiently, we can combine all their listings under one, what we call an umbrella account for the management company. Instead of filing 30, 50, or 100 returns for each property, we can file a couple for the management company that covers the 30, 50, or 100 properties they're managing in their portfolio.
Managers often have a lot of questions around the mechanics of those type of administrative mechanics about how it works, how can we do it, and do they have to do it by property, by owner, or can we do things more efficiently? The good news is in the manager segment, there are shortcuts and consolidations we can do to make things easier.
Jason: Right. Because usually, most of the properties are in similar geographic areas, you can bulk those together.
Rob: Exactly. Most of our managers are obviously concentrated in one area. Sometimes they span across two, three, four cities, or a couple of counties, so there are maybe a handful of different jurisdictions or filings that need to be managed. We do work with some of the national operators like Evolve or TurnKey Vacation Rentals, we work with the Saunders and the Lyrics. A lot of their [...] comes out of that multifamily space.
Certainly, the national operators have a much more complex set of tax requirements, so I think we can be a good partner. But you're right, most of these companies are localized within a certain area and they're dealing with a couple of tax agencies, not hundreds.
Jason: Basically, you have streamlined tax compliance for property managers. You're going to be able to group some of these filings together so that they're not having to do as many, and then you're focused on things at even the local level, state level, and just making sure that they're compliant all throughout all these different tax situations.
Anything else that those listening should know and how can they get in touch if they're interested in trying out your service?
Rob: The one thing I had passed along, we sometimes see reticence on the multifamily or long-term operators. They certainly know what's going on in the short-term rental space and they certainly know maybe there are a few homes or some of their portfolios that would really work there, but they're often intimidated by these taxes. I'm talking about even multi-billion-dollar multifamily operators that we work with, they're very concerned about managing these taxes correctly for the liability.
I think that's fair but I would encourage people if you want to get into it, experiment with it, or you think there's better revenue yield in the short-term space for some of your properties, I would encourage people to jump in. These large websites are very effective at generating your rent. Certainly, relative to the tax piece, we're applying technology to really just take that burden away from people and know that they can operate in this market, be fully taxed, and license-compliant. That's my advice.
In terms of reaching us, we're a hosted service. We're on the cloud. We like to do things through technology. The best way to reach us and get information is through our website, which is mylodgetax.com. Once you're on the website, there's information about tax, our services. If you want to send us an email or give us a call, we do have phone numbers published there. We're happy to pick up the phone and walk through people's specific situation like what are the requirements for their city, how doesn't work, what would it cost to use our service. We feel those types of inquiries and happy to talk about it all day long.
Jason: Perfect. All right. They can check out mylodgetax.com. I appreciate you coming on the show, Rob, and I wish you guys success.
Rob: All right. Thanks so much, Jason.
Jason: You bet. Bye-bye. All right, check out mylodgetax.com if you're concerned about the taxes, especially for your short-term rental properties, take a look at that.
If you are a property management entrepreneur that’s wanting to grow your business, add doors, it might be time to take a look at your website. Test your website out. Go to doorgrow.com/quiz, test your website out, and see how effective it is at making money because it's not just about having a pretty website. It's about having a website that's effective at creating conversions, capturing business, and creating trust. If your website isn't, you could be potentially losing out on one, two, three, four deals every single month, maybe more.
The typical deal for most property managers is probably worth about $6000 lifetime value. Say you can make $2000 a year per door and you can keep them on for maybe about three years on average, that's about $6000. If you're missing out on just a door a week or maybe about four doors a month, and if you're getting on about four doors a month, you're probably missing out on just about that many. That's about $24,000 in future ROI that you're missing out on every single month.
Websites are not that expensive. Making the changes are not that expensive. That's a leak that's easily shored up. Check out the DoorGrow Score Quiz and you can then easily schedule a call with our team. Nobody builds more effective property management websites than DoorGrow. Other people are trying to manipulate and focus on search engine optimization and rankings. You don't even have to have the top spot or even show up on the first page of Google in order to have a business that's crushing it with growth. We can show you how, so reach out to the DoorGrow.
That's it for today. Until next time, everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.
Before you accept a bunch of cash from applicants who drive up in a BMW to rent a property for a few years, check criminal background reports. Otherwise, you could end up with drug dealers with grow operations as tenants. You may be their next victim!
Today, I am talking to Jason Waggoner of ACUTRAQ, which offers accurate and reliable criminal background reports. He knows what property owners/managers deal with when it comes to tenants and how ACUTRAQ makes a difference in communities.
[01:50] Who is Jason? Started out by fixing and customizing cars to selling vacuums.
[02:40] Buyer’s Remorse? Selling a vacuum to the right person led to ACUTRAQ job.
[05:00] Federal vs. Multi-state Databases: Criminal reports are important, but don’t capture all crimes and court activity.
[07:02] Federal vs. State Crimes: Federal reports include most heinous crimes.
[09:41] Don’t Ask, Don ‘t Tell? Avoid lawsuits and being liable for renting to criminals.
[13:45] Aliases: Know tenants by all their names via social trace for criminal history.
[15:41] Why use ACUTRAQ? What does it offer compared to others? ACUTRAQ specializes in where accurate information comes from and how it’s relayed to landlords.
ACUTRAQ: We love what we do. We love making a difference in the community.
Some state criminal background systems generate reports that have a lot of holes for criminals to crawl through.
If landlords don’t do background checks, it doesn't take long to destroy rental properties.
When you run a background check, know applicant’s past alias names...all of them.
ACUTRAQ’s Phone: 479- 439-9174
Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)
National Crime Information Center (NCIC)
National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM)
Jason H: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker.
DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.
At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show.
My guest today is Jason Waggoner of ACUTRAQ. Jason, welcome.
Jason W: Good afternoon, Jason.
Jason H: I'm a little biased but I like your first name.
Jason W: It's a good one. We had some creativity going on in the 80s.
Jason H: Yeah. There's a lot of Jason, a lot of them. Let's get into this. First, I want to get in your background a little bit. How you got connected to the industry, how you got connected into doing ACUTRAQ. Give us a little bit of background for those listening on who is Jason.
Jason W: Very fun story there. I started when I was 18, I actually went to school for autobody to learn how to work on cars, fix wreck cars, customize cars, [...] did that, got out of that, winning the sales. Years later, I was actually in between jobs at the moment and besides, this was in 2006. For 20–25 days, I sell vacuums while I was putting in resumes and different things. Thought nothing of it, got another job in inside sales.
A month later, I went back to doing that. Two years later, Jeannie Baker, the owner of ACUTRAQ, calls me and ask me if I'm still doing sales and said that I had sold her a vacuum cleaner two years prior to this and wanted to go to lunch. We went to lunch, she had a great product, and believed in it. My father-in-law inherited a rental property. The things that he went through over the course of that first year, he ended up selling it and getting away from it. This was when I was young, 17–18-ish.
After seeing him go through that and seeing what products she had that could have prevented it, it just made a home seem like a lot more. That was in 2008. I've been with her ever since and since then, the company has grown. We used to just be in a few states, now we're all in the lower 48 states with offices throughout the country and a staff of about 12 in Arkansas. Just good, consistent growth over the years. We love what we do, we love making a difference in the community. That's how I get hooked up in ACUTRAQ. It's not the normal story you hear from people.
Jason H: You sold her a vacuum?
Jason W: Yeah.
Jason H: You sold her a vacuum and she was so impressed at how you sold her the vacuum. She didn't have buyer's remorse. She wanted to have more of you, she wanted you to work for her. This is great.
Jason W: She got up that morning and looked over the corner and thought, "I know who my salesman is."
Jason H: That vacuum was an anchor. Every time she saw that vacuum, she's like, "That guy sold me. I need somebody like that." It's interesting because as entrepreneurs, we're always looking for the person that's going to help us with the thing that we're weak at.
Jason W: Right.
Jason H: You filled a gap for her.
Jason W: Definitely, yeah. She had done it for 10 years by herself at that point and had grown where she physically can't do it by herself anymore. A lot of planning, a lot of sleepless nights, we've been somewhat successful in growing this business and creating something that she started back in 1998 and just continuing to watch it grow.
Jason H: The topic at hand, the title of this episode is Everything You Need to Know About Federal Criminal Reports. Let's talk about what we need to know.
Jason W: The federal criminal reports are important and a lot of people don't understand the difference between what most landlords run, meaning a multistate database and they sound similar. Multistate, federal, you think all the federal just covers all those different states. The reality of it is, the multistate database is what most landlords run. It has a lot of holes in it, it has States that don't even report to that database.
For instance, New York, they report to the Department of Corrections but not their County data. Massachusetts has its own system called the iCORI system. There are holes in it but those are derived from state repositories from the Department of Corrections from different places like that. Let's say I get in trouble. I'm in Houston, Texas. If I get in trouble here, I go to Harris County, they book me in and if I get convicted, if I do prison time, I'm going to do it in a Texas state prison.
The difference with the federal criminal report is it's a different set of courts. Let's say I do that same crime. Let's just use drugs, for instance. Let's say, I do drugs and I traffic those drugs, now, I go to Louisiana, to Alabama, to Mississippi. I went across state lines. That's a federal charge now. I've messed up not only in my state but federally and that would be trialed in a different set of courts.
Most landlords and even some employers do not get those federal court records because it's a smaller percentage. It's 8%–10% which is still a big chunk but the type of our crimes that are tried there are embezzlement, kidnapping, bank robbery, crimes against animals, child pornography, a lot of crimes. If a landlord knew that person had been convicted recently or maybe even in the past, it may change their decision on whether or not they would rent to that person. Most people don't know those records exist.
The reality is, most landlords have probably placed somebody that had previously robbed a bank or an ATM, or somebody that had previously been convicted of kidnapping or embezzlement, things of that nature. A lot of computer crimes regarding identity, identity theft, things of that nature. The thing about the federal crimes that there may not be as many but they're all the crazy ones. They're all the ones that if that person had committed that type of crime, it would definitely change the decision.
Jason H: They're the worst.
Jason W: Right. That's the difference in those federal criminal reports. We offer them as an upsell to our clients for an extra $5. Whoever people are using, it would be wise to go back to their provider and say, "Hey, am I getting this federal criminal report? Can you show me that we're pulling that report?” because there are a lot of heinous crimes that can be committed under the federal level.
Jason H: I just want to point this out because I thought this was really funny, that you're using an example of somebody committing crimes and you used yourself. You did this. You're like, "Let's say, I do this and I commit this crime." Most people do, "Let's say there's a guy named Fred."
Jason W: Allegedly.
Jason H: Allegedly. Here's what's funny. When I met you at the conference, you were this half criminal, half business suit costume like this thing. Sometimes, you even said you shaved half of your beard and you're like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, or two-faced.
Jason W: Yes. At the Florida conference, the NARPM conference, the beard was just coming in. I couldn't quite get the half shaven down and make it look presentable. That piece, it really shed some light on what people come in looking like because we actually had applicants that showed up in BMW, with a briefcase full of money, and wanted to pay for the next two years in cash. Then, you look them up and they are known drug trafficker, they've been involved in grow operations and everything else, and you were going to be their next victim.
Without running that report, you never see the criminal side of what they're bringing into that rental property because somebody's not going to buy a house and then trash it, do that stuff, dig down to the electric pole, and tunnel in all the things that it takes. They're going to do that to a rental property and then hit the road as soon as they have everything they need.
Jason H: Do you think some property managers would just rather keep their heads in the sand, kind of don't know, don't ask, don't tell? You think there's some that are like, "I'd rather just not do this extra work. I'd rather just not know. If that happens, I did something and they just didn't show up on that so I'm absolved." What would you say to those that they're thinking about listening to this, "I don't want to do extra work."
Jason W: The thing about it is, let's say somebody moves in to that property and does something crazy, commits a crime. We've seen this before, it's the same way with our property managers. There's a lot of their stories that sound like sales pitches but they're really not. They're crazy stories that happened and they want to do whatever they can to help somebody avoid those again.
Let's say somebody does something heinous in a property. The first thing that the courts are going to do is go back to the person that leased that property and say, "Who put this person in there? What checks did you take to ensure the safety of the community around you?" Typically, they think that the homeowner has the deepest pockets. When something goes crazy, who's the first person they sue? The homeowner.
It may trickle down the line if there's a property management company involved, but the ones that are just out here doing it think maybe something is going on but like you said, they don't care enough to go to the motions. Whatever they do there is their business. It can be really scary, the things that we've seen. For the homeowner’s side, everything can be scary from the investment. You're looking at this company as an investment. So, if you get somebody that goes in and guts it down the studs, and puts all the stuff that they need in there to do, to set that house up for whatever they're setting it up for.
Just to give you an idea, the things that go on, I'm actually in Kingwood, Texas which is the Northeast tip of Houston, Texas. Suburbs, everybody pretty much deems it a safe community. We let our kids play in the street. Last week, there was 79 arrest made from a sex trafficking operation. 79 people. How big that operation must be to arrest 79 people that are involved in?
Jason H: They just said, "Let's pick a really safe community. We're going to fly under the radar there probably." Those property managers aren't using ACUTRAQ so we're going to get away with this.
Jason W: Right and even some of those. Those people are legit on paper and the career criminals know how to get by those background checks and we put everything in place in ours from identity alerts. We've tried to add a lot of things to try to catch these people when they're doing this. The reality of it is though, they're going to do it in rental property.
If you get a property manager, I'm not even a property manager, in most cases, they're doing background checks. Let's say you get a home-based landlord, they just have six rental properties and the first one finds out that they don't do background checks or anything, as soon as one of their properties come open, "Hey, let me know if you have anything open. I've got somebody I know needs to rent a house, too, and I love recommending you." It just goes that line.
Jason H: "I've got four other criminal friends that would love a place."
Jason W: Yeah. "Landlord Johnny here does no background checks. It doesn't take long for those properties, the value and everything.
Jason H: Let's drive this home to our target audience here. The property management business owners listening, they've got hundreds of rental properties. If somebody has figured out how to game their system, they don't really cover this check in this state. If we've done stuff in this state, we can fly under the radar. They're only running this light-level background. We get the pick of the litter. They got 20 properties available for lease, that just beat them up.
Jason W: Yeah, it can happen. That's the thing. For instance, when you run that background check—this is for anybody that's in this world—you need to know the people or the person's past alias names. If somebody's been married three times, you need to actually run the married name and all three married names to get an accurate representation of that person's criminal history. If they changed their lives name, they change their date of birth, that's the only way criminal history is ran for a tenant’s screen is by name and date of birth.
The career criminals, let’s say they say they know they have criminal history but it slides by, they automatically know that they either typo-ed something in it and it slid by, or they changed something on purpose and it got through. The next time they tell their people, "Make sure to change your data birth, your last names." If my last name's Waggoner, I may put it down on paper as Wagner. Even if they're looking at my license, if they're not matching it up right beside each other, it looks close enough that Jason Waggoner, Jason Wagner, it's all the same. That would cause a criminal hit to miss in most cases.
The best thing to do is there's a search called a social trace and we put everything we have just because of how important it is but if somebody's not getting it, ask your provider about the social trace because it provides all the past alias names that that person has used with their social. If you signed up for a cell phone and utility, anything you had to put your social down, it's actually stored with that name used and the address used. That helps a lot in finding the alias names when people are trying to tell you they don't have any.
This is the only name I've ever had. No, you've had two other ones and then, one nickname that you used as alias, too. Running those can make a difference. The career criminals, once they find the loophole, once they find the window or door opened, it's just like a house. They'll crawl through and they'll their other friends to come right behind them.
Jason H: It's party time.
Jason W: Yeah.
Jason H: Okay. There's a lot of different screening services out there. Help those listening. I'm sure a lot of them have something that maybe came with AppFolio or they got something with Rent Manager, something with Buildium, something with Propertyware. For those listening, why should they use ACUTRAQ? Help them understand what's the contrast between what they had typically and what you're going to do for them.
Jason W: You bet. In Rent Manager, we're actually an affiliate of, some other software, too. Typically, the reason somebody will go outside of their software to use us for these reasons. The background check is a no way an afterthought. Not only that, if your applicants have trouble, they call us if they have a dispute. That's one of the big things.
With tenant screening, it’s making sure your applicants have a way to dispute the information because you can have a Junior and a Senior. Senior's been arrested 10 times, been in prison his whole life. Junior didn't know him growing up.
Jason H: Junior's a good kid.
Jason W: Senior's criminal history still keeps showing up on Junior's report. Every time he gets an application for an apartment, he has to go through the whole process. "That was my dad. It's not my criminal history." Having a way to dispute that, it can mean them having housing or not having housing with those reports being accurate. If something like that does come up. Having that documented and being able to help him is one of the biggest things.
The support side of things, that's what we do, is background checks, there's nothing else on our plate. The biggest reason is to have a third party, unbiased source outside of your company, outside of your software, all these people do are background checks and if something goes wrong, you could bet that we'll have your back and search through it, anything at all. That's the difference of having somebody that does that and having that as just an ancillary service.
Jason H: It's probably fair to say if their intuition is saying something's off about somebody but everything comes back clean, maybe they should put you to the test and see if you come up with something that [...].
Jason W: We love the [...]. The other thing too is not a lot of companies can staff and have people to make the phone calls to the landlords and employers. With our full premium report, you'll get an employment verification plus the current landlord and the prior landlord.
You'd be surprised that the different reports we get from one landlord that’s trying to get rid of them currently and the one from a year ago that lays it all out and lets you know what's coming. With those added, it really just helps give a better representation of how that applicant's going to act in that property and how they're going to pay rent and all that good stuff, everything to do with their character.
Jason H: We talked a little bit about why they should use ACUTRAQ and what makes it a little bit different. What are some of the typical questions a property manager might ask you about ACUTRAQ went during the sales process? You're the sales guy, I'm sure you dealt with some objections. What are some of the typical questions that you get for those that are listening?
Jason W: We generally start with the application process. They want to know about that. Onboarding the applicants and how that process works. The biggest thing with the process is the application in our eyes because that's where it starts. That's the first thing that an applicant sees of your company, if you're a landlord, and whether they're doing it, the software's doing it, or a third party like ACUTRAQ. That's the first phase of the company. That needs to be a smooth process, the relationship, you get off on the right hand.
The other thing is they typically want to see an itemized list of everything that's going to be on that background report. You think we're getting a criminal report. What does all that include? There are a number of different things that should be included on that and I hope most everybody listening is getting these with their provider, but of course, it's the 50 State Sex Offender search. It's the social trace that we talked about that has the alias names.
The OFAC which is very important nowadays and that's the Office of Foreign Asset Control. They are the ones that have the terrorist database searches, the terrorist watchlist. Anything to do as far as that goes, that's where that information is going to come from and it's OFAC. A lot of people want to know about that one because everybody wants to make sure that we're not housing some terrorist cell in the middle of Houston or Atlanta Georgia, somewhere like that.
The FBI most wanted list. That's another thing that's included that we forget to talk about a lot of time or the FBI most wanted list, the DEA most wanted list. Something a lot of people don't know is every major city has their own list for those. Along with the Top 10, every major city has their Top 10. Searching for those, understanding where the data comes from, and what you're getting like we were talking about name and date of birth only. So many people think it's tied to a social or driver's license number, or something like that, but in reality, it's not.
The police officers and firemen are the only ones that have access to what we call the National Crime Information Center. Unfortunately, landlords don't have that luxury. Understanding where the information comes from, how important it is to make that decision can literally mean life and death from somebody on the block if you house a violent person in there, if you house a sex offender or something in that nature.
That's a lot of the questions that we get. Spanish speaking, that's getting to be more and more prevalent, so we did add that a year-and-a-half ago. We do have bilingual staff. A lot of different things like that. What we specialize in is where the information comes from, how do we relay that back to the landlord in an accurate manner.
Jason H: All right. So ACUTRAQ is your sole focus, is doing this screening, and you have these itemized lists, lots of different sources that you're going to be checking like OFAC. It goes well above and beyond what they're typically going to get. You integrate with some property manager software like Rent Manager.
Jason W: Yes.
Jason H: I think I gave a light summary there, some of the pluses. This sounds like a really cool thing. How can people get in touch with ACUTRAQ?
Jason W: acutraq.com. You can always reach us at info@acutraq.com, that goes to myself and the owners so we will reach back out to you directly. The website is the best way. If you want to call us, feel free to give us a call at (479) 439-9174. That would be the corporate office in Fayetteville, Arkansas and I'm out in the Houston, Texas office.
Jason H: You guys are making property management safer for the property managers that are the boots on the ground, you're making neighborhoods safer, and in general you're helping property management have a better reputation. I appreciate that.
Jason W: That's our goal.
Jason H: Awesome. Thanks for coming on the DoorGrow Show.
Jason W: Thank you.
Jason H: All right. You guys check it out, ACUTRAQ.
If you're a property management entrepreneur and you felt like your website might be a little bit leaky, you're just not seeing enough business come through, you think you need more lead, if you just had more leads, everything will be better, it's not leads. Leads are not your problem. You've got leaks in your sales pipeline. Leaks are at the very front end of the pipeline. If you've got leaks throughout it that are causing attrition and without even changing your lead sources, if you're shore up all those leaks, leaks of trust, you can have more business coming out.
You're getting some business now. It's not hard to double it just by reducing the friction that's happening at every stage in your sales pipeline. Reach out to us at DoorGrow, that's what we specialize in. We also can clean up your property management website, that's what we specialize in. I don't believe that anybody does better property management websites than DoorGrow. Our focus in not on trying to manipulate Google and with search volume is relatively low and it always has been for property management. Our goal is to facilitate greater trust which helps you close more deals and that's really what your website is for. It's a trust indicator.
People don't buy property management. What they really want to buy from you is safety and certainty. That's what they want to buy. You can create more of that through your website, through your branding, through your sales process, through your pricing strategy, through your reputation online. We'll help you get these things optimized so that your business can grow. Check the site site of doorgrow.com. Until next time, everybody, to our mutual growth.
You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com.
Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com.
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Do you work because you want to or have to? Have you ever considered investing in land to generate enough passive income that exceeds your fixed expenses?
Today, I am talking to Mark Podolsky of Frontier Equity Properties. Mark’s passion is investing in land, creating wealth efficiently, and helping others develop their inner geeky entrepreneurial spirit. He’s known as, “The Land Geek,” for buying and selling thousands of raw and undeveloped land deals. Also, he’s the author of Dirt Rich, a guide to building a passive income model in land investing.
[02:40] Beat Friday Blues: How and why Mark became a land investor.
[05:40] Breaking Down Passive Income Model: No emotional attachment to land and distressed financially.
[07:26] Property Checklist: Due diligence to confirm ownership, back taxes, no title breaks, and no liens.
[08:25] Buy the property free and clear, and sell it in 30 days or less.
[08:40] Neighbors: Built-in best buyers to protect privacy, views, and expand holdings.
[09:09] Other Options: Sites with specialized buyers and sellers of raw and undeveloped land (i.e., Craigslist, Facebook, Land Flip, Land Moto).
[10:00] No renters, rehabs, renovations, and rodents; exempt from erroneous real estate legislation.
[10:48] Price Point of Fixed Expenses: Typically, $10,000 a month in passive income.
[12:05] Operating Entity: Spend a few hours a day on land investing business, and automated software/virtual assistants do the rest.
[14:35] How to get started? Everything is hard in the beginning. Embrace the suck.
[16:00] What Mark loves about land investing? No physical inventory, no competition, inefficient market, one-time sale, and passive income.
Core Business Philosophy: Happy customers guaranteed.
Raw land is the best passive income.
There’s nothing not to love about land investing for passive income.
True Wealth: Work where you want, when you want, and with whom you want.
Warren Buffett’s Margin of Safety
Dodd-Frank Financial Regulatory Reform Bill
Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA)
Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business, and life, and you’re open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker.
DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.
At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show.
Today, I am hanging out with Mark Podolsky. Mark, welcome to the show. I’m going to read your bio here because we want to qualify you and then we’ll let you brag a little bit because you got to do a little bit of starting out here.
Today’s topic (for those who are just tuning in) is land investing for passive income. We’re going to learn how to use land investing to create a passive income stream. Mark J. Podolsky (AKA The Land Geek), is widely considered the country’s most trusted and foremost authority on buying and selling raw, undeveloped land within the United States for almost two decades. Mark has been actively investing in real estate and raw land and has completed over 5000 unique transactions.
Mark’s company, Frontier Equity Properties, LLC, is an A+ rated Better Business Bureau real estate company. Mark has achieved this level of success largely due to his core business philosophy, happy customers guaranteed. Mark is the host of one of the top-rated podcasts in the Investing Category on iTunes, aptly titled The Best Passive Income Model and The Art of Passive Income. He is also the host of The Land Geek podcast: Work Smart. Earn More. Learn How.
Mark, there you go. Give us a little bit of background on you and how you got into this land investing.
Mark: Let’s rewind to 2000 and imagine me fighting traffic, 45 minutes in the car there and back, micromanaged, stressed out at an investment banking job, working with private equity groups specializing in mergers and acquisitions. Jason, it got so bad for me that I wouldn’t get the Sunday blues anticipating Monday coming around. I’d get the Friday blues anticipating the weekend going by really fast and heading back to work on Monday.
My firm hired this guy and he’s telling me that as a side hustle, he’s going to tax deed auctions, he’s buying up raw land pennies on the dollar, he’s flipping them online, and he’s making a 300% return on his investment. Jason, I’m looking at companies all day long and a great company has 15% EBITDA margins or free cash flow. Great company. Average company is 10%. I’m looking at companies all day long, less than 10%. Of course, I’ll believe him.
We go to New Mexico. I do exactly what he tells me to do. I’ve got $3000 saved up for car repairs so I can only buy $3000 worth of land. I buy 10 half-acre parcels, an average price of $300 each. I put them up all online and they all sell 30 days later from an average price of $1200 each. It worked. 300%. I took all that money, I went to another auction in Arizona (which is where I live) and again, it’s 2000. There’s no one in the room, there’s no competition, I’m buying up lots, I’m buying up acres for nothing. Over the next six months, I sold all that property and I made over $90,000 cash.
I go to my wife, and she’s pregnant. I said, “Honey, I’m going to quit my job. I’m going to become a full-time land investor.” She says, “Absolutely not.” So I worked land investing part-time and it took 18 months for the land investing income to exceed the investment banking income and then, I quit. I’ve been doing it full-time ever since.
Jason: It’s so easy, anybody can do it?
Mark: Yeah, I wish. I wish it was so easy. It’s a simple model but anything worth doing in life is not easy. What I could do is I could walk you through the model and then, odds are you’ll just stop the podcast and quit doing what you’re doing and start land investing with me, but that’s okay. That happens a lot. You want me to walk you through it?
Jason: Yeah.
Mark: Jason, where do you live?
Jason: I’m in Santa Clarita, California.
Mark: Okay. Let’s imagine that you own 10 acres of land in Texas. I go to the county treasurer and I get a list of people that owe back taxes. Sure enough, there’s Jason Hull in Santa Clarita, California, $200 in back taxes on this 10-acre parcel. Jason, you’re advertising two things to me. Number one, you have no emotional attachment to that raw land. You’re in California. The property is located in Texas. Number two, you’re distressed financially in some way. Because when we don’t pay for things, we don’t value them in the same way. And you haven’t paid your property taxes. As a result, the county treasure keeps sending you notices saying that, “Jason, if you don’t pay your taxes, you’re eventually going to lose your 10 acres to a tax deed or tax lien investor.
What I will do is I would look at the comparable sales on that 10-acre parcel. I’m going to take the lowest CUP and I’m going to divide by four. That’s going to get me what Warren Buffett calls a 300% margin of safety. I’m going to actually send you an offer of $2500 on that 10-acre parcel assuming that the lowest CUP is $10,000. I send you an offer for $2500. Now, you accept it because for you, $2500 is better than nothing and you haven’t gone out to look at the property. You just don’t care about it anymore. In reality, 3%-5% of people accept my “top dollar offer.”
Now that you’ve accepted the offer, I’ve got to go through due diligence or in-depth research. Number one, I got to confirm you still own the property. Number two, I have to confirm the back taxes are only $200. Number three, I have to make sure there have been no breaks in the chain of title. Number four, I have to make sure there are no liens or encumbrances.
I have this whole property checklist and it goes on and on and on. If it’s a property deal that’s worth less than $5000, I’ll actually close it directly with my team in the Philippines. We’re hooked up to an American title company. I pay $11 for due diligence. They’ll give me a whole property report. I’ll get the GIS maps, the plat maps, aerial maps. If it’s an area I don’t know, I’ll have somebody go out there, stamp on the property for me, take a video and shoot photos throughout the property checklist. What are the neighbors doing out there, what’s the road like, all these things.
Everything checks out and now, I buy the property from you for $2500. You get $2300 of it, $200 goes to the treasurer, and now I have that property free and clear. I’m going to sell this property 30 days or less. The reason I’m going to do this is I have a built-in best buyer. Do you know who it is?
Jason: No.
Mark: The neighbors. I’m going to sell that to the neighbour saying, “Hey, here’s your opportunity. Protect your privacy, protect your views, expand your holdings, know your neighbour.” Oftentimes, the neighbors will buy it. If they pass, I’ll go to my buyers list. If my buyers list passes, I’ll go to a little website you might not have heard of called Craigslist (10th most traffic website in the United States). I’ll go to an even smaller one. It’s called Facebook buy-and-sell group and marketplace. And then, I’ll go to these platforms that specialize in buying and selling raw land, landmodo.com, landandfarm.com, landsofamerica.com, landflip.com. It goes on and on.
Now, the way I’m going to sell it is I’m going to make it irresistible. I’m going to ask for a $2500 down payment. I get my money out on the down, within (let’s say) six months of that. I’m going to get a car payment, let’s say $449 a month, 9% interest over the next 84 months. Essentially, I’ve got a one-time sale, I have passive income of $449 a month, 9% interest over the next 84 months, no renters, no rehabs, no renovations, no rodents.
And because I’m not dealing with a tenant, I’m exempt from Dodd-Frank, RESPA, and the SAFE act (this onerous real estate legislation). The game that we play is can we create enough of this land notes where our passive income exceeds our fixed expenses and then we’re working because we want to, not because we have to. The beautiful part about all of this is 90% of it is automated with software virtual assistants. It’s great.
Jason: What is the price point of fixed expenses typically?
Mark: For most people, after you earn about $10,000 a month in passive income (that’s $120,000 a year), you’re in pretty good shape. Now, we have some clients who are doctors and lawyers. I have a client. He’s been working with us for 10 months. He’s at $15,000 a month passive and he just went from 5 days a week at his law firm to 2 days a week and he’s spending the rest of his time with his dad who needs help working with him and the other two days doing what he wants to do.
We have so many clients that once they hit that point, they retire their spouse. They quit their job. They do what they really want to do in life because the whole idea of this is that we can always make more money but we can’t get more time. For me, true wealth means you wake up and you don’t have to be anywhere. You work where you want, when you want, and with whom you want. That’s really the goal of doing all this.
Jason: Love that. What else do people typically ask you about this? When you say it, it sounds really easy. It sounds like something that maybe anybody can do, but it’s like starting a part-time job if you start getting into this.
Mark: It is. It is an operating entity. We ask our clients to spend about an hour or two a day doing this. That will move the needle because with our virtual assistants and our software, it’s pretty automated. We actually have automation software for marketing. We can automate our craigslist and our Facebook postings with a posting automator.
The only two things that (as CEO of your land investing business) you, Jason, actually have to do, is county research because if you get that screwed up, that whole thing falls off the rails, so you have to pick a good county. From there, you’re going to make sure that you get your pricing right, so you might want to work with a VA, train them, and show them, “Hey, look. Here’s our lowest comps dividing by four. We need a response rate of 3%-5%. If it’s under 3%, our offer is too low. If it’s over 5%, let’s get nervous. Why are they selling us their property? We might have to renegotiate.” We have our metrics in there.
As far as the rest of the process, you can get virtual assistants to do our due diligence. You can get an intake manager that can actually talk to your sellers (because that’s a big time-suck as well). From there, you can close. We like to use Simplifile accountings, so that we can record our deeds online, so I don’t have to go and do a lot of whole paperwork that way.
Once we own it, again, we have an inexpensive virtual assistant getting us through GIS, all the neighbors information, uploading that to our software, sending out our neighbor letters. There’s an API with lob.com, which does our mailings. On the backend of it, we use a software called GeekPay.io that is a set-it-and-forget-it system on collecting our money.
We get our down payment via credit card and then we get our monthly payments via ACH. It does all the amortization. It does all the calculations. It charges fees but it does it through notifications. If that ACH bounces, it will charge the credit card on file. We went from an 8% default rate to a 4% default rate. I personally worked two hours a week in Frontier Properties, doing the kind of volume that we do.
Jason: Sounds great. That’s pretty incredible. How hard is it for somebody to get started with this that’s new?
Mark: It’s like anything in life. Everything is hard in the beginning. You know what’s really hard, Jason? Learning to read. We don’t remember it. We forgot how hard that was in the very beginning but you had a good teacher, they broke it down for you step-by-step, and you are with other people. It was just a thing, like everyone can do this and you’re just expected to do it. It’s the same kind of thing.
What happens is we’re so ingrained after all these years of schooling that you have to achieve what you achieve, to go back and embrace beginner’s mind and embrace the suck. It’s hard. If you can do that, if you can be comfortable being uncomfortable and you have some grit, you can be successful in anything in life, whether it’s my land investing niche or growing your doors. It doesn’t matter. Nothing worth doing is easy.
Jason: It sure is nothing worth doing is easy. The challenge is if somebody is going to choose into doing this, choose into doing property management, or choose into doing any business, they have to fall in love with this. They have to get excited about this. Help the listeners understand what do you love about doing this? Your clients that get involved in this, what do they love about it that’s different from other entrepreneurial ventures that they get into?
Mark: The main reason that people like this model is number one, there’s no physical inventory.
Number two, there’s little to no competition. If you go on HGTV or the DIY Network, you’re not going to ever see me on Flip This Land. The before pictures is raw land, the after pictures is raw land. It’s not going to be much fun to watch me in front of a computer. If you go to [...] meeting and there are 100 people in that room, 99 of them are house flippers, landlords, or wholesalers. You and I are the only land guys.
Number three, you have an inefficient market. I’ve got a hedge fund manager that loves this business because he’s like, “Mark, there are very few inefficient markets left out there. Nobody knows the value of raw land.” Now, that can be very frustrating in the beginning, but it’s also very exciting once you get your arms around it.
No physical inventory, no competition, inefficient, and then you have the fact that it’s a one-time sale and then the passive income versus let’s say I flip a house. I make $20,000 on a flip. I have a new problem. What do I do with my $20,000? I can’t put it in the bank. It’s not going to earn anything. I have to keep redeploying that capital.
Once we get to let’s say $10,000 a month of passive income, what our net worth? How long would it take you to have an investment of $120,000 a year at say 2% interest in the bank? That’s over $3 million you and I would have to save. How long, Jason, would it take for you to save $3 million? How long would it take anybody to save $3 million?
Jason: I probably would never do it.
Mark: Yeah. 12-36 months, you can have that kind of cash flow and then your bankers are really happy with you because your net worth is over $3 million. The fact that—I’m not proud of it—I can’t even screw in a light bulb. I tried to flip a house once. I am not interested in physical things so the subs come out there. I meet the subs. They don’t show up. Just the capital outlay, I started with $3000. My buddy, [...], started at $800. You’re not going to ever get knocked out of the game in this niche. The dollars are just too small.
If you go into multifamily housing, you do one bad deal and you’re done for 10 years. You’re BK or you’re just a pariah in the investment community because you lost all your investors money. This is not like that at all. You have an easy entry point, you have no physical inventory, you have no competition. You have a one-time sale on passive income. You have an inefficient market. There’s nothing not to like about it. I think what’s interesting is if you go to a party and you tell people you’re a land investor, they’ll yawn. It’s not sexy. Definitely not sexy. Maybe you lie and say you’re in multifamily housing.
Jason: I don’t know if that’s super sexy sometimes either, but yeah.
Mark: I mean it depends who you’re talking to.
Jason: How do people get started in this? It sounds interesting. My interest is piqued. I’m sure some people listening are interested. How do they get started with this because I’m sure there’s a fairly steep learning curve? There’s got to be a reason why everybody isn’t doing it. How saturated is this?
Mark: It’s not saturated at all because again, it’s just not sexy. It’s not conventional. The marketing budgets of the people that are in the house flipping world like Robert Kiyosaki or FortuneBuilders, that’s really where people thought to. Land investing, you have a mental hurdle for people where they think, “Well, I’ve never bought land.” We all know everyone needs a place to live. Nobody needs raw land. You don’t wake up today and say, “Boy, I really got to own 10 acres today.”
Jason: That land that nobody is using and nobody seems to want. That land.
Mark: Right. It’s a marketing business. You have to interrupt somebody’s day, pique their interest, and make it irresistible. I’ll tell you, after over 5200 deals, I’ve never been stuck with a piece of land. You buy any asset, 25–30 cents on the dollar, there’s someone else on the other end of that deal. Whether it be a piece of land, a car, a trinket, it doesn’t matter. The market is the market. So to get started, I would say you’ve got to learn from somebody who’s done in.
For example, let’s say you and I are going to go to Mount Everest together. We’re going to climb this big mountain.
Jason: We’re not just going to wing it.
Mark: Yeah. You’re going to someone who’s done it a million times and they can tell you the best routes quickly, efficiently, and safely to do it. That’s what you want to do. You can start with that. In fact, for the listeners, I would say that I have a $97 course that I’d love to offer them for free. If they just go to thelandgeek.com/launchkit, they can go ahead and get that course for free. Start there and then see if they like it or not.
Jason: Their time investment is 1-2 hours a day?
Mark: If that, yeah. It depends if they’re using tools or not. It also depends if they have a scarcity mentality or abundance mentality. A lot of people, when they start doing this, they think they can penny-pinch their way to wealth. They don’t want to use the tools that are out there.
Jason: “No, I’ll do it myself. I’ll watch 120 Youtube videos and figure out how to do it myself.”
Mark: Yeah, and you can do that. But again, my whole philosophy is that I can always make more money. I can’t get more time. So, anything that’ll save you time, I’ll invest in.
Jason: I say something very similar to my clients. That makes sense. Anything else anybody should know before we wrap this up and how can they get in touch with you?
Mark: If you have that mindset that Zig Ziglar says, “If you'll do for the next 3–5 years what other people won't do, you’ll be able to do for the rest of your life what other people can’t do.” You’ve got to get your reps in and you have to embrace the suck. Again, nothing worth doing in life is easy. It might be a simple model, but it’s not easy. You have to take action at some point
Again, the best way to get a hold of me is thelandgeek.com. I’ve got an audio book. I’ve got a book on Amazon called Dirt Rich if you want to just read about it and hear my story as well. It got really good reviews. People seem to like it. It’s not because I’m such a good writer. It’s just that they like it.
Jason: Nice. Perfect. Look for the book, Dirt Rich, or check out thelandgeek.com. Mark, this is interesting. I think it’s a new idea that people certainly haven’t heard of this before on the DoorGrow Show. I appreciate you coming on and hanging out here with me.
Mark: Jason, thank you so much. Again, I apologize if you’re just going to quit your business and go [...] with me.
Jason: I love what I do so.
Mark: See? There you go. You can do both.
Jason: Both. All right. Maybe I’ll get a few people from this show that are wanting to do both. There you go. Mark, thanks again for coming on the show. We’ll let you go.
Mark: Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it.
Jason: If you are a property management entrepreneur and you enjoy the show, be sure to like and subscribe. If you’re watching this on Youtube or on Facebook, be sure to share it if you would. We would appreciate that. If you’re in some property management groups, we’d love to see your comments. And if you’re on iTunes, give us a review. We would really love to get that feedback. We’re putting out this content for free. We would love a little reciprocity, people. That would be really sweet of you. I would appreciate it greatly. It helps us get the word out and make a difference in this industry.
If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to grow your business, add doors, you’re struggling, you’re feeling that there’s a scarcity in the industry, there’s no scarcity in property management right now. 70% are self-managing. There’s plenty of opportunity. Reach out, talk to us, and let us help you see how you can align your business towards more warm leads and stop spending so much time trying to go with cold leads, time keepers, and time wasters.
The people that are at the very end of the sales cycle are the coldest, crappiest, most price-sensitive. Those are the people searching online. They’re the leftovers that fall off the word-of-mouth table. Come sit at the table with us. We’re DoorGrow. We’ll talk to you soon. Check us out at doorgrow.com. Bye everyone. Until next time, to our mutual growth.
Have you ever played the board game, Monopoly? Were you successful at buying properties, and charging people rent? Did you go from buying and selling the little green houses to bigger houses? Did you dream about becoming a successful real estate agent, making billions, winning the game, and retiring at an early age? You’re not alone.
Today, I am talking to Pat Hiban, a real estate agent who got better over time to have an illustrious career in the real estate sales business. Pat practiced what he preached and like most agents, bought houses and then rented them out. At 46 years old, Pat retired from selling homes for commissions to living off the income he made from the real estate that he purchased.
[02:45] Labeled as Learning-Disabled: How Pat overcame it, and didn’t let it bother him.
[03:35] Go Getter: Don’t reinvent the wheel. Listen and copy others to sell houses.
[04:09] Done is better than perfect: Things don’t need to be perfect, but need to get done. Hire others to make them perfect and fix problems.
[05:58] Building a Billion-Dollar Business: One sale at a time, one staff member at a time, one commission at a time. Get rich quick is a slow process and takes discipline.
[07:54] What holds people back from growing their business? Themselves. There's someone else that has the same goals, but there's no difference between them.
[11:00] What’s going to happen? You're going to quit affirming and focusing on your goals, or they’re going to come true.
[13:25] Unwilling to Give Up: Entrepreneurs tend to have tenacity and relentlessness.
[14:31] Are they not setting goals? Or, are they setting goals and failing? If they don't have any goals, they're never going to get anywhere.
[15:30] GoBundance: Find accountability partner for positive peer pressure to set goals, create affirmations for each goal, and make sure each goal and objective gets done.
[19:42] Why people fail to succeed? They give up too soon and don’t establish proper mastermind.
Stick with Superpower: Getting business, doing business, and making money.
Done is better than perfect.
To get rich quick is a slow process. Get rich slowly to succeed.
Your circumstances are a direct result of your goals and how often you review them.
Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill
Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunity, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and the residual income.
At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show.
And today's guest, I'm hanging out with Pat Hiban. Pat, welcome to the show.
Pat: Good to be here, Jason. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I'm excited to be on DoorGrow.
Jason: Give everybody a little bit of background on you and how you got involved with real estate. Help them understand who Pat is.
Pat: That's a big question as far as who Pat is. It's easier to say how I got involved in real estate. I went to college and I got a degree in sociology. I was going to be a probation officer and I couldn't get a job. What happened was I became an agent, a real estate agent, a poor one in the beginning. I sold 10 house in my first year, made $13,000. Over time, I got better, and better, and better, and I went on to an illustrious career in the real estate sales business. I did practice what I preach and like most agents, I bought houses along the way and then I rented them out.
I played monopoly a little bit, sold the little greenhouses, bought bigger hotels, shopping center, lots of apartments, things like that. Then, at 46 years old, I retired from selling real estate homes for commissions, and just live off of the income from the real estate that I purchased currently.
Jason: One of the things in the bio that you've mentioned is you're labeled with a learning disability at the age of eight. Maybe you could share a little bit about that and how you overcame.
Pat: Basically, I was learning-disabled. It was all a label. At that point, just like anything, I didn't let it bother me. When you're 8 years old, or even 10, or even 16, you're not conscious of any of that. You're really unconscious of it until later in life when your parents tell you about it.
I got a 2.3 GPA in college. I didn't really think of myself as being really smart. I really saw myself more as a go getter. Someone who would actually be able to do whatever somebody told me to do. My office managers would tell me, "Pat, this is what you need to do to sell a house or to get a listing," I would actually listen where 99 of 100 other agents wanted to try it their own way or reinvent the wheel. That's how I grew everything in my life. It's just by copying off other people.
Jason: You've had a lot of success where a lot of other agents haven't been able to experience success or they eventually folded in and just gotten out because they just couldn't make it. What do you attribute to being different? Is it just that you would listen and learn? Or do you have a little bit more tenacity and bite than most people?
Pat: One of my favorite quotes is, "Perfect is the enemy of done." I never really had to have things perfect, but I always had to have things done. I think that served me in that I would get them done. If they weren't perfect and there was a problem, I would hire other people to make them perfect for me so that I could stay in my superpower, which would be getting business, doing business, making money.
It was like what Robert Kiyosaki always says, "The B students works for the C students." That's true with me, I think. I'll be able to get it done. I'll be able to come up with the idea and implement a copy of it to somebody and implement it, then just hire other people along the way to make it perfect or better.
Jason: I love that idea of, "Perfect is the enemy of done," which is funny because I say to my clients of a whole training video that talking about it and getting their websites launched. I say, "Done is better than perfect," because once it's done, it can make money. It can do its job. If you're waiting for perfect, it takes forever.
Let's get into the topic on hand, which is building a billion dollar business. How do you build a billion dollar business?
Pat: How do you build a billion dollar business? One bite at a time. That's like an elephant [...]. It's crazy. With me, it's just one sale at a time, one staff member at a time, one commission at a time. With regards to properties and property management, it's the same thing. One unit at a time, one door at a time. You're just building on that. That would be the answer to the question.
So many people today want to get rich quick. The truth to the matter is to get rich is a slow process. You got to know how to get rich slow. If you know how to do that, you're going to succeed.
About a decade ago, there's a movie out called The Secret. The whole half of the movie was talking about what you need to do to become a millionaire is to sit there and basically just tell yourself, "I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire."
There's a great quote by Jim Rohn. He says, "Affirmation without discipline is delusion." What Jim meant by affirmation without discipline is delusion is you can sit all day and be like, "I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire," but at the end of the day, if you don't earn a dollar and save a dollar, you're never going to have a million. It really should be, "I save $10 a day, I save $10 a day." Or, "I earn $20 a day and save half." Whatever it is, the point is, you need to add discipline.
Jason: For those listening, they're struggling in their business or they’re wanting to grow their business, what do they need to realize that it's maybe holding them back?
Pat: Themselves. The answer is themselves. There's someone else in another state, another country, that has the same goals, and aspirations as them, that's so far ahead of them already this year. There's no difference between them. As a matter of fact, that person somewhere else may be disadvantaged compared to them in some way. Meaning, they don't have the money, or they don't have the skills, or they don't have the degree, or they aren’t the right race, or the right sex, whatever the case maybe. They may be disadvantaged in many ways, but I guarantee you that there's tons of amount there that are way ahead of you with the same goals as you and there's no difference between you two.
Jason: Yeah. We could hold on to our story and excuses or we can get results. We're the one creating our own blindspots. If we're the ones that creating our own blindspots, we're the ones that's holding ourselves back, then how do we see that?
Pat: What you have to understand is how psychology and how people are raised, and how most people are raised. I'll speak for America or North America. The average two-year old boy hears a negative statement from his or her parents or people older than him 16 times for every one positive statement. They might tell that little boy, "Don't touch that." "You're doing it wrong." "Wipe your face, you're messy," anything that's negative. None of that is positive.
By the time you're 18 years old, your subconscious mind is conditioned to believe that you can’t do stuff because you're doing all these things wrong. The only way to reverse that effect on your subconscious mind is to work on your subconscious mind. That's where you basically take goal-setting to whole another level where you actually set goals which everybody's listening to this probably has goals set. You reduce those goals to ridiculous.
I just talked about earlier, whatever it is you want to do, let's say you want to buy a house once a year or buy a house a month, that means you need to look at 20 everyday. You set your goal to that. Then, you create an affirmation around it for your subconscious mind that says, "I analyzed 20 deals a day." If you analyzed 20 deals a day, your mind believes that you're supposed to be analyzing 20 deals a day, and your mind believes that you're supposed to be buying one house a month, then it's going to happen. You can't help it.
Either one of two things are going to happen. I guarantee it. Either you're going to quit, meaning you're going to quit affirming, you're going to quit reading your goals, you’re going to quit focusing on your goals. Or number two, it's going to come true. I believed that if you focus on that goal everyday, whatever it is, buying a house, and you focus on what you need to do to get into that goal everyday, it will happen. You will actualize it. I think that's how you overcome the subconscious mind of yours that’s not believing that you’re worthy, not believing that you ever will be a millionaire.
I never really had much of a doubt that I would do well, that I will be rich. I was lucky and I was naive enough. A lot of people struggle with that. They don't have that naivety. The way to work around that is reprogramming your subconscious mind but not just in glorious goals. Not just in big goals, but in how you're going to actually act to get to that big goal.
Jason: I like this idea. You're saying if you have a big goal, you have to break it down into the smallest action, the action that you're going to be taking on a daily, consistent basis. Then, you create an affirmation connected to this. That affirmation is just basically that you're completing this microcommitement, this action. Like, "I'm going to cold call this many owners to see if they're out of state. To see if I can get them on for business. I'm going to do whatever." It needs to be a daily, consistent, action. I'm going to go to this many real estate network. I'm going to commit to that.
Breaking down into the smallest action, "I'm going to take this many agents out for lunch and have a conversation with them. Hopefully, we meet the referrals." They need to start setting some micro commitment and creating affirmations that they're saying regarding these to affirm that they're doing it. Then they need to live with integrity and take action towards those affirmations.
Pat: Absolutely.
Jason: Say, somebody's doing the affirmations. They're believing in themselves. They're taking these micro commitments. Then you said they're either going to quit or it's going to come true. There's this tenacity that I sense in you, this relentlessness, that I think a lot of entrepreneurs carry, that they're just unwilling to give up. If you're unwilling to give up, eventually, the universe just got to cave to you because you're relentless. Eventually, you're going to get it.
Pat: And giving up is hard. You don't want to give up on the ultimate goal, but you’re going to have to change how you get there. Things are going to pop up on your way. You're going to have to go around them. Some people would say that would be quitting but it's not really quitting. You're just doing things in a different way all the time.
Jason: Right, like course correcting.
Pat: Course correcting, yeah.
Jason: You've worked with quite a few different entrepreneurs and business owners. What advice would you give to those listening that you would typically give out for those that are wanting to move towards goals and they're struggling to figure stuff out on their own? What would you recommend to them?
Pat: Are they not setting goals? Or are they setting goals and failing?
Jason: That's a good point. What if they're not setting goals? What if they don't have any goals right now?
Pat: Silly. Then they don't have any goals. They're never going to get anywhere. I have goals since day one. I can't imagine life without goals, even today. Most people don't have goals. That's why they're in a situation that they are. Your circumstances are a direct result of your goals and how many times you review your goals.
Jason: Got it. First off, they've got to set some goals, then they need to review these on a regular basis.
Pat: Daily. I would add something. Maybe have an accountability partner. One of the things we do at GoBundance, The Tribe of Millionaires is we have what we call peer partners which are people in the tribe that keep each other accountable. If they're goal is to call 20 out of state owners everyday, they text them, and say, "Did you call 20 today?" Then, we have GoBuds, which are about four to five GoBros that are in The Tribe of Millionaires that meet on a bi-weekly basis to talk about their goals, talk about where they're at, what they've done, and what they haven't done, that sort of thing, and it works.
The point missing would be the accountability aspect. Not only set goals, not only create a subconscious affirmation for each goal big and each goal small, meaning the act-oriented goals, the discipline-oriented goals, but bring accountability around those discipline-oriented goals to make sure that they get done.
Jason: Got it. They need to be accountable with somebody. If they're accountable to one, then the likelihood of them actually it is probably none.
Pat: [...] works so well.
Jason: It's probably because they have a coach, right?
Pat: Yeah. They have to go in and step on a scale every week or every day. They have to write down and track what they put in their mouth. If you do that and someone's looking at it, it works. But if no one's looking at it, you're not looking at it, you're not stepping on the scale, and you're not writing down what you eat, chances are you're not going to lose weight.
Jason: Yeah. I worked out with a trainer for a solid year to get in shape. He had me fill out a spreadsheet. Every time I showed up (like once a week), he was pinching me with things to measure my body fat. There was no hiding. He was like, "I could tell you didn't eat right this week," or, "I could tell you're not getting enough sleep because you're retaining water." He’s just tell these stuff. He's done these with so many people.
Same thing with working with any business coach that I've worked with. There's this level of accountability, that I'm checking in with them. I know I'm going to be talking into them and say they're going to ask me, "Did you keep your commitments? Did you do what you said you're going to do?"
I think there's that positive pressure. We're so good at applying negative pressure to ourselves. I think it's rare for us as entrepreneurs to apply pressure in a lateral or a positive way among our peers or among our people that their goal is to level us up. We firmly are really good at attracting people around us to tell us that we can't do things, that it's difficult, that maybe we should get a job. We've all heard these things as entrepreneurs. We really do need to have some sort of accountability. We need friends, we need partners, we need those that are in our corner. We need a coach, we need mentors. We need people that believe and can support us in our objectives.
Pat: I agree. That's why we created GoBundance. That's why we do what we do and why there are over 220 members now, why our retention is extremely high. It's just because of that accountability piece. Your life just amplifies when you put it out there in front of other people.
Jason: Got it. I love the idea of adding an accountability partner. It’s a simple buddy system.
Pat, I appreciate you coming here on the DoorGrow show. Is there any other advice you'd love to share related to how people can get out of their own way, start working towards building the legacy that they want, and building the finances that they want?
Pat: I'm sure everybody here has heard of the classic book, Think and Grow Rich.
Jason: You said, Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill?
Pat: Yeah. What Napoleon Hill did is he just went around rich people. He asked them, "How did you get rich? What are your habits?" There was a newspaper article that said Napoleon Hill had to break it down into two things. He actually asked for one thing, "Why people fail to succeed?" He said, "I don't have one but I have two." He said, "The first thing is they give up too soon." They're about to hit the gold and they stop digging.
He said, "The second one is they fail to establish a proper mastermind." He was the one that came up with the mastermind concept. He had a mastermind with Harvey Firestone, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford. These are all big name people. They would hang out, grilled marshmallows at a fire, and share secrets.
That's how we came to write our latest book which is Tribe of Billionaires. I want to give everybody on the show an opportunity to get a copy of this if I could. You can get a free copy by going to tribeofmillionaires.com and all you've got to do is pay the shipping. It's a story of a guy who loses touch with his father. For 20 years, he doesn't see his dad. Then, his dad dies and he has to settle the estate. He sees the pallbearers of his dad's coffin. They're six guys. They're all billionaires and multimillionaires.
He scratches his head because he's like, "I thought my dad was a deadbeat. How are his pallbearers billionaires?" Then, he's lucky enough that in order to get his estate, his dad wants him to spend a week with all these rich guys. What ensues are lessons that he learned. He journals about these lessons after spending or during his weeklong time with these six pallbearers. That was what Tribe of Millionaires was all about.
You can get it on Amazon for $20. You're welcome to have it for $7 or free. All you're doing is paying $7 shipping. You just go to tribeofmillonaires.com.
Jason: Perfect. All right, I appreciate that. Check out tribeofmillionaires.com. It sounds like a really good story that teaches some lessons regarding money, finances, and growing your business.
I appreciate you sharing that, Pat. Any other words you want to share before we let you go?
Pat: Nope. I'm easy to find. Luckily, my last name is not really popular. Just type in Pat Hiban. You can find me in multiple places. Follow me on social media, Instagram, Facebook, everywhere.
Jason: Perfect. Pat, thanks for coming on the DoorGrow Show.
Pat: My pleasure.
Jason: There you have it. Check it out and get a free copy of the book. You said you can go to tribeofmillionaires.com.
If you're a property management entrepreneur that's wanting to grow your business, if you're looking to connect with other entrepreneurs, wanting some accountability from me as a coach, and some support, I recommend you reach out to DoorGrow. We would love to help you grow your business.
Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.
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